EP 9 The Day We Met Ngugi I African News Review 🌍

In this conversation, Host Adesoji Iginla, along with Milton Allimadi, Aya Fubara Eneli Esq and Dr Greg Kimathi Carr, celebrates the life and legacy of Ngugi wa Thiong'o, exploring his profound impact on African literature, language, and cultural identity. 

The speakers reflect on their personal experiences with Ngugi's work, discussing the importance of writing in indigenous languages and the challenges faced by contemporary African writers. 

They emphasise the need for cultural memory and the role of literature in social justice and liberation movements. The discussion also explores the intersection of spirituality and language, highlighting Ngugi's critique of capitalism and the significance of community in literature.

Takeaways

*Ngugi wa Thiong'o's legacy is celebrated for its profound impact on African literature.
*His work emphasises the importance of writing in indigenous languages.
*Language is a crucial aspect of cultural identity and resistance against colonialism.
*The conversation highlights the need for cultural memory in African societies.
*Ngugi's critique of capitalism is a significant aspect of his work.
*The role of women in Ngugi's literature is increasingly recognised and celebrated.
*Community engagement is essential for the future of African literature.
*Education systems must incorporate indigenous languages and cultural narratives.
*The intersection of spirituality and language is vital for understanding African identity.
*Ngugi's influence continues to inspire new generations of writers and activists.

Chapters

00:00 Celebrating Ngugi wa Thiong'o's Legacy
02:19 The Impact of Colonialism on African Literature
05:19 Personal Reflections on Ngugi's Work
07:50 Language and Identity in African Literature
10:27 The Role of Resistance in Ngugi's Writing
13:11 Challenges Facing Contemporary African Writers
15:53 The Importance of Indigenous Languages
18:37 The Future of African Literature
24:42 Decolonising the Mind
25:37 Intellectual Terrorism and Thought Suppression
27:30 Language and Identity
29:19 The Impact of Language on Faith
30:38 Personal Encounters with Ngugi Wa Thiong'o
36:37 Ngugi's Anti-Capitalism and Humility
40:28 Workshopping Ngugi's Books
46:06 Engaging Youth in Critical Thinking
48:22 The Complexity of Solidarity and Victimhood
48:36 Cultural Reflections and Spirituality in Literature
50:05 The Asmara Declaration and African Languages
52:26 Language and Justice: A Cultural Perspective
55:19 The Role of Language in Cultural Identity
01:00:13 Intergenerational Conversations and Cultural Memory
01:03:21 Celebrating Literary Giants and Their Legacy

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.851)
Yes, greetings, greetings, greetings and welcome to another episode of African News Review. And this one takes a special meaning. For one, we have a new, we've acquired a new ancestor in the person of Ngugiwa Fiongo. May his path be smooth. And to help celebrate his life, as it were, I have with me, as usual,

Milton Allimadi (00:22.958)
you

Adesoji Iginla (00:30.289)
The good comrade, Comrade Milton Alimadi of Black Star News, how are you sir?

Milton Allimadi (00:35.734)
Very good. Carribo. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (00:39.471)
Yes, and my regular co-host on the podcast, Women and Resistance, IAE Fubera NLE Esquire. Welcome, sister.

Aya Fubara Eneli (00:50.963)
Thank you so much. It's an honor to be here and to be here with comrade Alamadi. I'm going to be quiet and listen most of the time.

Milton Allimadi (00:57.965)
Listen to the troublemaker.

Adesoji Iginla (00:59.663)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:02.143)
I think we're all troublemakers.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08.059)
Well, well, well, good trouble as the late comrade will say. Anything good trouble is fine trouble. So yes, the title of the episode is The Day We Maff Ugu-Giwa Fiongo. Who wants to go first?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:12.72)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (01:24.492)
system.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:27.071)
did I go first? I cannot recall the exact year. It has been 30 years. I was in college and

Adesoji Iginla (01:30.556)
You

Milton Allimadi (01:39.114)
The sisters making up stories. You were not in college 30 years ago. You look like you're 30.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:43.431)
It's the filter.

Adesoji Iginla (01:44.125)
You

Milton Allimadi (01:49.26)
What do I do? You call me up God.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:52.287)
It's the filter. I was quite chagrined that although I had done some of my education in Nigeria, that I had actually not read his book in Nigeria. I understand some of my other colleagues have. But the first book that introduced me to...

Our ancestor Ngugiwatianga was a Weepknot child. And I don't know that at that time I really understood the import of the man, the life that he lived, his legacy, which I have no doubt will endure. And I'm hoping that as he makes his transition, that now more than ever we pick up his books.

and we really not just read for leisure, but that we actually apply what he repeatedly tried to teach us in, whether it was his novels or his other writings, his memoirs, he has a lot of insight. And of course, he was a very courageous man to be speaking up at the time that he did, he paid for it in multiple ways. And I'm sure we'll get into that discussion.

But as someone who at that point had hoped and before then to be a writer, just realizing the caliber of the man, his writing, his ability to take what was happening to African people across the globe, but specifically also in Kenya and in Africa.

Milton Allimadi (03:18.664)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:40.223)
to put that in writing and to give voice to what we were experiencing not just speaking about what was happening, but I Think coaxing us to reimagine a different way to live a different way to be

Milton Allimadi (03:58.184)
.

Aya Fubara Eneli (03:58.751)
And that was very impactful to me as a young woman. So upon his passing, his transition, I went on to scour my bookshelves to see just how many of his books I have and I've read. And unfortunately, there are just seven of them out of over 25 that he was a true writer.

And now I'm committed to getting his other books and delving into them as well so that we don't keep repeating the past.

Adesoji Iginla (04:36.679)
Thank you, thank you. Brother Milton.

Milton Allimadi (04:38.439)
Yes. All right. So I was reading most of the editorials, right? There's a very long one, Descent, in the New York Times. And the editorials note the Decolonizing the Mind, of course, which is a collection of essays, which is one of my personal favorites. I think it's a major book because it deals with a major issue that we have yet to deal with.

Adesoji Iginla (04:44.977)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (04:48.999)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (05:06.245)
marked up every line marked up in this book.

Milton Allimadi (05:09.049)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, unfortunately, unfortunately, not enough Africans have read the book and analyzed the book. And our systems of education have not allowed us to implement these suggestions and the lessons in the book. And that's a sad response. Because essentially, what he's saying is that colonialism, what it did

Adesoji Iginla (05:10.491)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (05:20.583)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (05:39.063)
in terms of disrupting and hijacking, you know, African systems of government, African spirituality, the African concept of who we are, African culture, all of that disrupted by colonialism. And then we have the post-colonial era, and we've never really addressed those issues. And as you spoke about,

him getting in trouble with the political establishment. The political establishment became suspicious and then resentful of Gugge, just as much as the, even more than the colonial establishment, because during colonialism it was still young, just emerging, you see.

And what I also notice in the obituaries is nothing is mentioned about his anti-capitalism. You know? So for example, the New York Times says, you know, it was suggested numerous times that he might be a candidate for Nobel laureate. And it just leaves it like that without exploring the possibility that maybe it's because of his anti-

Adesoji Iginla (06:40.408)
yessss, yes

Milton Allimadi (06:59.618)
his critique of capitalism is what really made that impossible because if it was based only on his writing and the depth of his writing, there's no reason why he should not have been awarded the Nobel. So the New York Times does not even speculate or ask people to comment about why they think that did not happen. So that's why it was a very important book.

Adesoji Iginla (07:00.733)
capitalist.

Aya Fubara Eneli (07:07.347)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (07:12.699)
He would have won it twice.

Milton Allimadi (07:30.463)
Now in terms of my own personal, you know, engagement with him, it's been through big years. I first met him in person in the 1990s. I think that was after I finished journalism school and he was teaching at NYU. And you know, he's very, you know, became like an elder brother or father, you know. I got in touch with him. He said, oh, just come over to my office.

So we'd go regularly and we would talk about the African condition. And he was always very interested in what I'm working on. And obviously I would also interrogate him on what he was working on. But I'll tell you, the first meeting, so I go there, you know, all excited and we're talking and we're talking. And then I said something I should not have said. I said, you know,

I love all your books. I love all your books. He says, thank you. He said, which ones are some of your favorite?

Adesoji Iginla (08:41.455)
you

Milton Allimadi (08:44.53)
You know, I have read most of his books, including of course the early ones like A Grain of Wheat, The River Between.

Adesoji Iginla (08:53.863)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (08:54.514)
But my mind locked out completely. And he's like expecting, like smiling. And I was like, nothing coming out of my mouth. And then finally said, I think there had been a big game. I don't know whether it was football or basketball. And then he mentioned the game. then we started talking about the game and that was it. He relieved me of my covadoes. And we never really had visited that issue again.

Adesoji Iginla (09:17.543)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (09:24.392)
you know, three of the years, he would come almost annually to talk at revolution books in New York. First it used to be downtown, now it's in Harlem. Right? And obviously, he would talk about a critique of capitalism, and he would, you know, criticize the elite that emerged in post-colonial Africa, who are now enforcing the same systems that

Adesoji Iginla (09:36.573)
I love you.

Milton Allimadi (09:54.597)
European colonials used to enforce upon Africans. So I find it quite disappointing and I think he himself would be disappointed in the obituaries that don't mention that because that was a very important part of his life and his struggle.

Aya Fubara Eneli (10:14.835)
very very important.

Adesoji Iginla (10:16.188)
So for me, I remember meeting him via his book as a 13 year old in Form 3. I remember having just finished Things Fall Apart. And we were told the next book we were going to read was With No Child. Most of my mates struggled with pronouncing his name.

Milton Allimadi (10:31.93)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (10:45.853)
for one, it was a name that wasn't familiar with us. But because it was part of the African writer series, we had to take it up as, what's it called? Recommended reading for literature in English. And so the name Ungugiwa Thiong'o became a go-to, not just a phrase, but then, you know, like, what are you reading? I'm reading Ungugiwa Thiong'o. Which one? Then Wipnot Child.

Milton Allimadi (10:51.59)
You're right.

Milton Allimadi (11:01.84)
Right.

Adesoji Iginla (11:15.889)
their names like Injuroge, the name of the principal actor in there. And then the theme, what made that book actually very, very poignant was our literature teacher at the time, Ms. Suarez, explained what you just narrated here about the clash between new education

and the old establishment, how new kids lost touch with regards to what was valuable to the old generation, i.e. land and culture, dressing and all of that. And so we were made to write series of essays and what have you. So fast forward coming to the UK and everything, there was this grand old bookstore on Oxford Street, know, high end Oxford Street London where

Aya Fubara Eneli (11:51.667)
you

Adesoji Iginla (12:14.357)
it's high-teen command zeros and consumerism. But then there was this big bookstore, three-story high, you go in there and then there was rows and rows of his books on the shelf. I'm like, I've not read this one. I've not read this one. I've not read this one. And before you know it, stacks.

Milton Allimadi (12:35.801)
You built a collection.

Adesoji Iginla (12:41.527)
of Ngugiwathiongo's books. And I was particular about the essays. The essays are brilliant. Brilliant. Writers in politics, from the barrel of a pen, homecoming, moving the center. This guy was just, I secured the base, something turning new.

Milton Allimadi (12:48.132)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (12:57.719)
Right.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:04.735)
Something, something torn and new.

Milton Allimadi (13:09.572)
right.

Adesoji Iginla (13:10.661)
He was just relentless.

Milton Allimadi (13:11.972)
Right, you know, the more you mention those titles, the more that convinced that had he just stuck to writing novels only without the essays, he would have been awarded the Nobel, you know, which of course is a critique.

Aya Fubara Eneli (13:23.647)
And perhaps had he stuck to maybe James, had he stuck to writing in English as opposed to shifting to Ikuyu? Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (13:23.662)
Yes, I think it was the

Milton Allimadi (13:32.458)
Yes, absolutely. James and Googie know you're right. Uh-huh. Yeah, no, you're right, because that was a bold declaration, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (13:40.349)
So yes, which brings me to the new question. The next question there is that what was it about his language, not just his name, or the fact that he decided to start writing in Kuyu that made him who he was?

Milton Allimadi (14:04.835)
right to start.

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:05.887)
gonna take a stab at this remember the exchange he had with actually he writes about it I don't know if I can find it immediately in this marked up book but about the language okay yeah I have it here he says English French and Portuguese had come to our rescue

Milton Allimadi (14:22.328)
right about the language issue, right?

Aya Fubara Eneli (14:32.551)
and we accepted the unsolicited gift with gratitude. Thus, in 1964, Chinua Achebe in a speech entitled, African Writer in the English Language said, and I quote, is it right that a man should abandon his mother tongue for someone else's, interesting that we call our indigenous language is mother tongue, given how women are treated now. But he goes on to say, it looks like a dreadful betrayal.

and produces a guilty feeling. But for me, there is no other choice. I have been given the language and I intend to use it. And of course we know that what Ngugiwateongo did was he said, not only is there a choice, I'm going to have the courage to exercise that choice, which is to write in Gikuyu.

And then it can be translated to everything else. And when you make that kind of stance, you definitely put a big target on your back as a nonconformist, as someone who's challenging the system. We understand, and he writes about this eloquently in a number of books, including something that's and new, of course, Decolonizing the Mind, about culture and language.

in that relationship and how that then carries the seeds of liberation or continued oppression and self-imposed oppression at this time. And so I think that for someone, not I think, I believe that for someone to have made that kind of decision at a time when had he chosen a different route, I do believe he would have been celebrated differently. I do believe he would have made more money and so on and so forth. He would not have been as a

Adesoji Iginla (16:10.075)
Question, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (16:24.523)
Yes. Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (16:26.427)
as much of a threat to the system, regardless of what he was writing about, that set him apart. Just as it sets people like Ayikwe Amah apart with the work he's doing with Per-ank. And those kind of people have to be marginalized or silenced so that those ideas don't move forward. Because we want people to be ignorant,

because they're easier to control that way.

Milton Allimadi (17:00.022)
No, I agree. Totally. You captured the essence of it. And that, of course, is the essence of that problem. And you know what? Which reminds me of two things, actually. What Fanon said, right? In Ratchet of the Earth. He said in the post-colonial Africa, if we want to replicate Europe, then we should let the Europeans do that for us. Because they're better at the most talented of us Africans.

Adesoji Iginla (17:24.701)
you

Milton Allimadi (17:29.882)
in creating Europe. So those are the choices. He said why should we look that as the vision of what we want to create, you know, given the history of Europe, given the history of Europe's child, the United States, we want to create something better and go beyond that. That's the first thing. And then the second thing in terms of the languages also reminds me of what Anta Jov said, you know, and he ridiculed

He said, how many brilliant politicians and leaders are we excluding by making the knowledge of French a prerequisite to get elected into parliament in countries like Senegal and all the other former French colony? And then the third thing, just carrying off from that same thought that Anta Joff raised,

Adesoji Iginla (18:19.165)
Colin.

Milton Allimadi (18:28.233)
how many African talented writers and storytellers, geniuses, were never discovered or recognized or know because they were not allowed to write in their native languages. Just imagine how literature and culture would flourish. And then of course at some point those could be translated into other languages like English, French, Portuguese or what have you, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (18:44.25)
Native song. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (18:58.61)
people like Dostoevsky, people like Tolstoy, you know, they wrote in Russian, right? And then they were translated into all the other languages of the world, you know. So how many of our own Tolstoy's and Dostoevsky have never been able to step forward because of the imperialism of these languages, you know. So those are the thoughts I wanted to.

Adesoji Iginla (19:06.62)
In Russian,

Adesoji Iginla (19:25.573)
So one of the things that the system tried to do to Ngooghee to break him was not only ensure that his writing is not as widespread as they hope it would be, was to actually commute him to prison in the mid-70s by Daniel Arakmoy, from which he would give us one of his best works, which is Wrestling with the Devil, his prison memoir.

Milton Allimadi (19:42.962)
Right.

Milton Allimadi (19:51.582)
Right.

Adesoji Iginla (19:54.407)
What was unique about this, and he writes in there was the first day he got in there, he met one old prisoner. And the man called, the man pulled him aside. The man said, Ongugi, if it's one thing that you hope to take out of this place, it's your mind. The moment you lose your mind, they have won. So what did he do?

Milton Allimadi (20:02.644)
you

Milton Allimadi (20:17.021)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (20:23.963)
His commissar, the toilet paper, he started writing his...

memoirs on it and he would write and he would keep and anybody that came to visit him they would take out and so that was how he was able to maintain his sanctity while he was in there. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. So

Milton Allimadi (20:44.679)
because it was in solitary confinement can really drive anyone, know, for sure.

Aya Fubara Eneli (20:52.243)
And of course we saw Winnie Mandela do something similar, not on toilet paper, but also trying to keep her mind writing, getting the papers mulled out, yes.

Milton Allimadi (20:56.093)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (20:56.879)
Yes? Yeah?

Milton Allimadi (21:01.116)
Exactly.

Adesoji Iginla (21:04.175)
Wale Shoinka also did something similar with And The Man Died. He also wrote that on toilet paper. So the question is, we know we're resilient enough, and we know we can put our thoughts on paper, whatever sort of paper we have. So the question would be, what is holding us back?

Milton Allimadi (21:29.029)
What do you mean?

Milton Allimadi (21:33.574)
I mean if you're saying Alex, because are you saying we should have more people writing in their local languages or because it was still needed published, I mean he was established so he could get published.

Adesoji Iginla (21:40.802)
Exactly. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Now I'm saying now, terms of public publishing now is a lot more easier than then when if you exactly. So the question is those local languages, you could write in them, write the stories. I mean, only recently we're getting stories out of Namibia that some languages are going to die out. But the moment you write those stories out and somebody translates them, it gives them a new

Milton Allimadi (21:57.187)
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Milton Allimadi (22:19.681)
Right. Okay, here's my response to that. I think, and that system is emerging now. Obviously, it's much easier to write than disseminate now. Now, I think today, the tragic challenges, a lot of people, younger people don't know how to package the message. They want to, because you see, whenever there's something that crystallizes, such as, for example, the whole issue with Ibrahim Trawri in Bukino Faso,

Adesoji Iginla (22:20.592)
lease of life.

Milton Allimadi (22:48.566)
a lot of young people are now galvanized and making commentaries because to them they know it's intrinsically wrong for a former colonial power like France and its allies, the United States, to attack an African leader who wants to exercise sovereignty. But now, unfortunately, unlike in the era of Ngugi, Achebe, Okant Bitek, Sho Yinka and all those guys,

neoliberalism is so dominant that critical education is not as widely available in African institutions, whether it's secondary schools, whether it's universities, because universities are also subjected to the dictates of the World Bank. If you want money from the World Bank, they want you to revise your curriculum, even at the university level. So endowments have gone down.

Adesoji Iginla (23:30.619)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (23:48.043)
the only kind of endowments that these are, the institution of the World Bank or the NGOs are going to endow are the ones who promote and teach neoliberalism. So in fact, you might even say that during the colonial era, you had more access to education about anti-capitalism, socialism, Marxism. It doesn't mean you have to become a socialist or a Marxist, but at least you have to

have access to the counter narrative, you see? And that's a problem. So we have young people who want to articulate change, but I think they have challenges in terms of the packaging because of the education system has been destroyed.

Adesoji Iginla (24:20.551)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:31.665)
totally agree with you. mean, we're seeing that here in the United States again. There's a new bill that was just introduced, HR, I want to say 3581, I think. But basically they're saying for medical schools, if you have diversity, equity, inclusion in any of your material.

Milton Allimadi (24:36.58)
Yup.

Aya Fubara Eneli (24:52.795)
If you have a DEI office, if you mention diversity in any way in your admissions or hiring, they will cut you off from all grants, student loans, every form of federal funding. They don't even want in the curriculum for you to talk about racial disparities in terms of healthcare, which is a huge issue here.

And yes, that bill was just introduced last, I believe on May 20th or something like that. And if people don't rise up, that bill will pass and there's an idiot in the White House, a felon in chief who will sign off on it. And so to the point you were making, Kamrad Alamadi about the state of education in Africa. And I would even go further to talk about the access to books. You every time I travel back to Nigeria, I'm scouring

Milton Allimadi (25:45.584)
Yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (25:50.385)
the few bookstores that I can still find. And you are seeing a lot of new authors, new writers, but they're not really grappling with this kind of information. You have a hard time finding the books of authors such as Ngugiwa Tiong'o. And so where do these young people then get introduced to these ideas to begin with?

Milton Allimadi (26:04.88)
No.

Milton Allimadi (26:16.773)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:17.853)
And then of course you talk about the fact that, let me take my hometown of Opobo, our indigenous language, our mother tongue, so to speak, would be Ibani. That language, very few people speak, let alone read. So if you go and write in Ibani, are basically sentencing yourself to a life of being a pauper. Nobody's interested in that book.

Milton Allimadi (26:46.652)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (26:47.763)
people will translate the Bible and the Christian hymns and all of that to our Indigenous languages. But in terms of our literature, it's almost like to be seen as an intellectual. You have to be writing in the language of the oppressor because otherwise you're just not intelligent. You know what? We don't believe in

Milton Allimadi (27:06.418)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:13.361)
in our own intelligence, in the fact that within our language, within our culture are the answers that we're seeking, even though chasing after these people and their oppressive language has rid us of a lot of agency as it is right now. so why aren't most of, as I was rereading last night, some of his writing in...

Adesoji Iginla (27:21.917)
Hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (27:41.853)
Decolonizing the mind. I was thinking about the fact that I've published four books and None of them are written in evil, which I speak fluently Also because I don't write evil as much and I probably Articulate my ideas as well in evil But what would it take because I was asking myself this question It would take discipline to sit down and start over again Because I can do it but it's that time

But also knowing that if I say, I've published a book in Evo, there'll be three people who bothered to take a look at it. And so we have a lot of challenges in terms of how we see ourselves and what we consider intelligence. And that definitely affects, yes, how we move. And I believe we have a guest that is trying to join us. So can you resend that link to the guest?

Milton Allimadi (28:19.25)
you

That's great.

Milton Allimadi (28:28.007)
That's a key question.

Milton Allimadi (28:33.543)
That's it for now.

Aya Fubara Eneli (28:38.323)
He's saying he's available to join us. Your special guest.

Adesoji Iginla (28:41.666)
okay. Let me see if I.

Milton Allimadi (28:43.909)
So I think in the meantime, I just want to expand on what the sister said. The bill that she mentioned, it's really ironic that the West used to laugh and ridicule the Soviet Union for this type of control, right? This is absolutely intellectual terrorism, is what they're doing.

Aya Fubara Eneli (29:13.096)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (29:13.627)
Thought suppression that's something that they used to equate with a Stalinism, you know Back in the day. That's one point I want to make and then the second point is that In terms of the dominance of media outlets and narratives So for example even our own writers and I've noticed that Even in social people that are posting comments on social media about

Ngugi. Many of them are reflective of what's been published in the New York Times and in the Guardian. Most of them are not even talking about his anti-capitalism. I haven't seen it, right? And then finally in terms of, actually two more points. One is in terms of the English or French being the measure of your level of intelligence.

So you see a lot of our elite, you know, they come up with phrases that they don't even need that are inappropriate, just to impress people of their level of comprehension of the English language or French, right? And then the final point is sort of like a funny story. And this is a story that was conveyed to me by a Ugandan friend. We said in his village, there was this very

Adesoji Iginla (30:22.941)
you

Greg Kimathi Carr (30:32.239)
So

Milton Allimadi (30:42.12)
old man who used to go to the Catholic Church and they would conduct the prayer, the ceremony in Latin. And then at some point they made the decision to switch to the indigenous language, which is Lua. And then he abandoned going to church. He said, now that the words are so ordinary and he can understand it, he doesn't see any connection with God. so when they were praying,

Greg Kimathi Carr (30:58.414)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (31:06.429)
You

Milton Allimadi (31:09.167)
In a language he did not understand, he thought, I'm closer to God somehow. But they're now conducting church prayer in his own local language. no, no, no. Then it can't be worthwhile. And he quit going to the Catholic church. Welcome, Dr. Curryboy.

Aya Fubara Eneli (31:24.797)
You know what, this is, yeah, welcome brother Greg, Kimathi. But you know, when you said this, it just reminded me of something when I was in the Christian church, like we thought it was such a mark of...

Adesoji Iginla (31:26.93)
yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (31:40.593)
I guess purity to pray in tongues as opposed to in the language that we understood. That just made you more Christian, if you will. So that was really funny that you brought that up. But of course, we know that at the time when he was arrested was after he started writing in Kikuyu. Because at that point, you're making this information available to quote unquote the peasants, the regular people. And God forbid,

Greg Kimathi Carr (31:42.767)
you

Adesoji Iginla (31:45.529)
Mmm.

Greg Kimathi Carr (31:48.846)
you

Milton Allimadi (31:52.038)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (32:01.39)
Exactly.

Milton Allimadi (32:06.433)
Absolutely.

Adesoji Iginla (32:09.008)
Yes, yes.

Aya Fubara Eneli (32:09.555)
that we for meant people thinking and getting them to realize there can be a different way. And so, yeah, that was his cardinal sin, again, in quotes.

Milton Allimadi (32:17.143)
Absolutely.

Milton Allimadi (32:20.889)
Right, absolutely.

Greg Kimathi Carr (32:22.424)
you

Adesoji Iginla (32:22.799)
Yeah, the performance of the people's theatre. I would marry when I want to. That was the...

Milton Allimadi (32:28.035)
right and not only did they stop it after six successful performances they burned down the fiesta to show that contempt.

Adesoji Iginla (32:40.629)
Welcome, Dr. Karr. And yes, we are just celebrating the lives and times of Ungugi Wafiongo. so I asked the question, the first question to my panel was, when was the first time you met Ungugi? So I suppose that question should go to you as well, just to help you dip your toe into the water of the discussion.

Greg Kimathi Carr (32:43.149)
Yeah.

Greg Kimathi Carr (32:50.413)
Of course, of course.

Greg Kimathi Carr (33:02.893)
Hmm.

Greg Kimathi Carr (33:09.141)
Yes. Yes. Well, first of all, thank you, Bob. I'd associate for inviting me and just as always good to see you as well. the good brother, Bob Milton Alamadi, I always get to see and I get to see I get to see you in person since you somehow magically appear some which somewhere between New York and D.C. on regular basis. I'm glad to see some always glad to see you.

Adesoji Iginla (33:23.108)
Yeah, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (33:33.852)
Ha ha!

Greg Kimathi Carr (33:36.725)
Yeah, I'm enjoying the conversation. Please forgive me. I'm back and forth on the road. so I got in late, yes, I just, but yet Bob and Googie, the one and only time I got a chance to, be with him physically, he came down to Howard. We had, teach his book, something torn and new, every semester, you know, every semester in my introduction to African States class. And now in Nubia, we use it as well.

Milton Allimadi (33:42.024)
understood.

Milton Allimadi (33:58.431)
What?

Greg Kimathi Carr (34:06.359)
But when it first came out, I picked it for our Philadelphia Freedom Schools program. So we had a couple of hundred high school students read it. And at the time, well, the process we used was inviting whoever the author of this book that we picked for the year to come to Philadelphia and be in conversation in a community with us. This is before all of this business we have here where everybody can go global all the time. And he was, know.

Adesoji Iginla (34:29.987)
You

Greg Kimathi Carr (34:32.045)
He wasn't able to get his schedule together. There it is right there. think it's was it 2009? Is it a Bible search? I think it's 2009, but not yet. So so a few years later, it's a few years later. I see you weren't able to work the schedule out to come at the end of that summer to to to be with us. And my process for freedom school is very simple.

Adesoji Iginla (34:40.125)
Yeah, 2009, believe. Yeah, 2009.

Aya Fubara Eneli (34:44.479)
See you

Milton Allimadi (34:55.649)
.

Greg Kimathi Carr (34:59.821)
every summer since 1999, whatever I was reading or I would be asking, you what do people think back and forth, I picked that book. So we've had a number of people, Randa Robinson came and Sonia Sanchez, a lot of people over the years. yes sir. So we did the same thing for the College of Arts and Sciences at Howard, the freshman seminar, the Dean of the college, James Donaldson, who's an ancestor now, had asked me to redesign the seminar, which involves right now probably about 1200.

Milton Allimadi (35:11.009)
Excellent.

Greg Kimathi Carr (35:28.352)
first year students in arts and sciences. So I picked his book again, I said, this is because when I first read it, obviously for all the reasons that are being discussed today and it being discussed around the world in this moment with his transition, he's just a transformative thinker. And in Philadelphia, know, although many of the students in Philadelphia, high school students, African students are the children of those who have come from outside the United States.

Milton Allimadi (35:43.872)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (35:54.506)
Bye.

Greg Kimathi Carr (35:55.552)
whether it be the Spanish Caribbean or the African continent or the Caribbean. And the majority of them, of course, being Africans descended from those who were held in captivity here. So it's a real rich convening. At Howard, it took it to another level. As Aya knows, having two of her children at historically Black colleges presently, well, one just graduated, of course. Shout out to my niece, Kosi, and Kosi Toru.

It's an international convening of Africans. So we actually were able to score two of the people who are very close and comrades. And of course, one of them still walks the earth, the great Wole Sheyinka, who came and spent a day with us after we had those young people read of Africa, his book of Africa. And then of course, Ngugi, who came before Sheyinka, who he writes about in his latest book, Decolonizing Language. But Baba Ngugi came from New York. He happened to be in East Kisii, I'll come.

Milton Allimadi (36:32.116)
Nope.

Greg Kimathi Carr (36:51.308)
So he spent the day and to have all these young people who had read his book, really digested it and workshopped it. The first part of the day for several hours, they did paper presentations and panel presentations. And he sat there, this elder student by student interacting with them, asking them questions, allowing himself to be asked questions for the continental Africans, the children of the continental Africans. It was a special treat, particularly those who knew him, particularly Kenyan students and the East African students, the Ugandan students, Tazanian students. And many of them

who are one step removed from the country of their direct origin because they were born here. But it was a point of pride for them that was kind of new for many of them because they didn't know Engugi before reading him, but having read him, they felt a special kind of purchase on him and it kind of revived their continental African links. It was a beautiful thing. And then for the students who were not from the continent directly,

Milton Allimadi (37:40.292)
Interesting, interesting.

Greg Kimathi Carr (37:50.987)
For the Caribbean students, they of course, whether it be the Haitian students or the Jamaican students, talking about the various petois and creoles, the language issue became of more importance because what you saw emerging was a new found respect for their parents and their elders, whom, they're at a place like Howard, which is no different than University of West Indies or Oxford or Cambridge for that matter, or IFAE or University of South Africa, where if you're in school, you're taught.

Milton Allimadi (38:04.722)
and moving.

Adesoji Iginla (38:05.841)
Hmm

Greg Kimathi Carr (38:20.031)
that the language of the people in the village, your people, you're supposed to be disrespecting. Here's this guy who's this outsized world figure restoring the idea that see the very grandparents that you all make fun of and make videos about talking about when they slip into that language that I said, now it's like, wow, that's a really active resistance. And here's this elder, this older man who's respecting them for their intellectual work and respecting more importantly, their parents and grandparents and great grandparents.

for the language they brought with them. So at noon, we had a luncheon and a young student who had already read Engoogie's work, Shanice Thompson, who was a 16 year old in Philadelphia, had read it when it first came out. Well, she was a first year student at Howard then, and she had her moderate the luncheon. She's like a daughter, she is a daughter of mine. And Shanice is now back at Howard as a professor. She's associate professor at Howard.

She continued in the academic track and one of the highlights of her life was being able to introduce and googie being in conversation with him. And then that night we, he gave us a talk on language resistance, colonialism, and got back on the train to New York. We took him back to the train. And so the last thing I say is what I remember is in being with him, even in those intimate moments between sessions or even going back, taking him to the train station and being in conversation. mean, like so many just geniuses and so many

true committed humanists who were coming as African people. Such a gentle, beautiful spirit. Even as you tell, he was tired. come from New York that morning, been there all day and went back. But he was such, I remember thinking, how could a man who was so gentle, so gracious, know, who served food to the reporters who were disappointed because when he didn't win the Nobel again, as if that was important to him, he was sure he was.

Milton Allimadi (40:08.898)
Thanks.

Greg Kimathi Carr (40:11.914)
How could somebody like that spit such hot fire for decades and rain fire and face the brutality that you all have talked about? But he was just so gentle. He's like a gentle old guy, So anyway, I'll leave it there. That's my first and only time being blessed to be able to breathe air at the same time that Ngoogie Wathiyongo's spirit walked the earth clothed for a season in the flesh that he occupied. But he's now released to the universe and to all of us.

Adesoji Iginla (40:16.605)
Thank

Milton Allimadi (40:20.645)
that.

Milton Allimadi (40:35.427)
Right. So comment, I just wanted to make one comment that I had mentioned earlier before you joined us. And I told Sister and this or you that I've read most of the editorials and I noticed that while they're praying these books, none of them mention his anti-capitalism. And that was a very important part of his life and his critique of capital.

Aya Fubara Eneli (40:36.223)
you

Milton Allimadi (41:02.115)
So I don't know if you had any thoughts you want to share on that as well before we go back to Brok.

Greg Kimathi Carr (41:09.545)
You know, it's interesting because humility, you know, I don't know that you could be humble and be a capitalist. No, no, I mean, in a sense that I remember, you know, it's interesting, Bob Hamilton, because in terms of a personal, you just you just unearthed for me a memory that I hadn't thought about in many years. And Gugi came. He had a you had that Shiki on. He had some simple pants that you could tell he had had for a long time.

Milton Allimadi (41:16.419)
Hahaha!

Adesoji Iginla (41:18.461)
What?

Milton Allimadi (41:37.53)
Ha ha ha ha!

Adesoji Iginla (41:39.473)
Hahaha!

Greg Kimathi Carr (41:39.913)
and no, answer and some run over black shoes. And I remember thinking, I like this guy because he dressed like you're not spending any money. Oh, shoot. I mean, this is a guy you would walk past on the street and not know anything. And of course, he could have had outsized riches. And to the people who don't have much of anything, if anything, of material wealth, he certainly wasn't suffering. But it's critical capitalism.

his analysis of cultural analysis of the depravity of capitalism. He literally embodied the humility. mean, you know, people talk about Christianity, you're not a Christian. Jesus Christ was not walking around here clothed in robes. But in Gugi's critique of capitalism is, I think, one of the things that obviously brought him such pain and misery.

Milton Allimadi (42:24.193)
Thank

Greg Kimathi Carr (42:36.361)
One of the things that allowed him never to center to worship or even in, I don't want to go so far as to say respect because he obviously had all the awards, but the kind of things that people would say, you were deprived of this, you didn't get this award. And he was like, I'm not even thinking about it. Do you want some tea? mean, that's kind of thing, you know, but, finally his centering of that allowed all of us, allows all of us to think.

Adesoji Iginla (42:55.537)
You

Milton Allimadi (42:55.66)
Absolutely.

Greg Kimathi Carr (43:05.798)
very deeply about the fact that we don't have to continue to live in these systems that have oppressed us, that even an act that appears simple and impossible, like coming back to the language of our ancestors, which is of course another one of his comrades, which maybe we can talk about a little bit later, Aikwe Armah, who simply went to war with Heidemann. It's funny to see the strategies that Armah took, that Ngoogie took.

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:26.975)
Thank

Greg Kimathi Carr (43:36.236)
that that Chinua Achebe took in terms of this white publisher Heidemann and of all of them, go ahead Aya, please. The accomplice, oh my God, no, no, Look, look, look. And then with that, I'm gonna be quiet because there it is right there, after writes back. And I know Aya is laughing because she has wrestled with that as much as anybody I know this question of, but then Kugi found a way somehow to thread that distance between, you know, the African,

Aya Fubara Eneli (43:39.167)
The African accomplice? I was going to say the African accomplice?

Greg Kimathi Carr (44:03.752)
Publishers the African independent institutions and the independent self-determining institution of language So rather than write in the high theoretical language the anti-capitalist the social scientist He simply lived in a very simple way and also communicated in his work the cultural foundations for the capitalist critique and of course that opened him up to you know to Engagements of his own with some of the people but anyway, those are some initial thoughts by the Milton

Milton Allimadi (44:28.525)
Yeah, I that, I love that.

Aya Fubara Eneli (44:31.391)
wanted to ask you if you can answer this question just succinctly for the viewers. You talked about your students workshopping his book. And I think there are going to be a lot of people who want to go now and pick up or reread his books. What does it mean to workshop a book? How do you read Ngooghee?

Greg Kimathi Carr (44:52.392)
Oh, that was tough for me. Well, especially for students in colleges now and universities, at least in the United States, it becomes increasingly difficult because of the disruption of social media and technology. And because now a lot of students, their first thing might be to dump a bio of in Greek white, they don't go into artificial intelligence and ask you to spit out a paper. You know, so 20, you know, 15, 20 years, well, that 20, 15 years ago.

Milton Allimadi (45:03.735)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (45:12.779)
Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Absolutely. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (45:15.911)
Hahaha!

Greg Kimathi Carr (45:23.016)
It was easier because what we would do with the high school students, first of all, we purchased everyone a copy of his book, everybody a physical dictionary, everybody a notebook that they could write in. And week after week, we would sit on Wednesday nights in the summertime, Wednesday afternoons in the summertime for six weeks. And then following the summer in the fall, we would spend every Wednesday night simply reading passage by passage.

breaking these hundreds of students into small groups of 10 to 15 students, then coming back, having select groups present out as to what they thought about the passages, and then having them journal in response to Ngoogie. Now, in the 14-week seminar at Howard, we used the same process. I was just a lot more students, but we had a lot more time. And by the time Ngoogie came, we had had a competition where we had

Milton Allimadi (46:02.871)
Thank you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (46:05.332)
Thanks

Greg Kimathi Carr (46:21.602)
students in clusters of three to five discussed with each other what they had read, what they had thought. The theme of the semester was something torn and new. And in fact, N'Gougi's work, now I'm thinking about it, wow, N'Gougi's work laid a foundation for how we did a freshman seminar going forward, fresh person seminar going forward. We would pick a theme, we would then have the students apply that theme to contemporary issues facing African people in the African world. And so reading N'Gougi required us

And I love particularly thinking about it. The first chapter, we talked about dismemberment and remembering the colonial use of language, that central theme, the predatory function of language, and then how we bring it back together. They became very enamored with that line by line, particularly the conversation that showed that it wasn't just the Africans, that the English did it to the Irish. You know, so it's very interesting. And then in the of the four chapters, in chapters three and four, when he put South Africa central,

Adesoji Iginla (47:12.422)
English. Yep.

Greg Kimathi Carr (47:21.552)
to the conversation, the students then began to learn who was Robert Sabukwe? Steve Biko, we see him. And then of course, the West Africans, or the South Africans like Womo, but also the West Africans, we are all very familiar with, course, what's the brother, Agri, Agri of Africa, the eagles and the chicken, who thought it was the chicken and all that. And Googie is pulling all these metaphors. And so sitting with him was a simple act of going line by line. And rather than instructing and saying, this is what this means, this is what this means,

flowing students down to literally taste that language and then have to write back to the language week after week, week after week, week after week as a metronome talking with each other. So it wasn't vertical teacher to student or student to teacher. It was person to person. So when the gookie came, they had not just tasted his words. They had absorbed them, thought about them, mulled them over, attached them to their own lives and experiences.

And they were literally in conversation with him. And you could just see the delight he was having, the twinkle in his eye, the smile. He got that smile like Milt Malamati, that kind of knowing smile like he has right now. That kind of, in other words, y'all get it. And I want y'all to argue with me. You know, that kind of closed mouth smile. know what I Because he wanted them to argue with them. But they were, there was some pushback, but mostly in terms of what's possible.

Milton Allimadi (48:27.214)
You made this day. You made this day.

Greg Kimathi Carr (48:45.305)
because it seems impossible to throw this off because even we're having this conversation now in English. So it's like, you know, and so they asked him about, you know, things like, well, you were James N'Gugi with the white publisher, but N'Gugi Wathiyongo, how important was when you went from James to N'Gugi? I mean, they're asking them very simple things and you can see all these students who took those Christian names they give, you know how y'all do, the West Africans, precisely do, you know, mercy, patience.

Milton Allimadi (48:49.62)
Yes.

Greg Kimathi Carr (49:09.881)
Christian automated, but now they're going back to their other names. so you do have another name. Yeah, but it will give you the same thing. It was just restorative, but it started, as you say, with that act of reading quietly, patiently, line by line and allowing yourself to slow down longer to do that. And that's what I'm terrified of AI about because it just kind of attacks that notion of slow reading.

Milton Allimadi (49:10.014)
Right. Good luck.

Aya Fubara Eneli (49:11.762)
Thank you.

Milton Allimadi (49:32.372)
That was so awesome. Can you imagine if that had been videoed and the students could see it today, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (49:33.991)
No,

Greg Kimathi Carr (49:39.78)
yes, yes. We actually have some, yes. We don't have a lot of video, but now that you mention that, Baba, I'm gonna actually go back and look because I think we did video some of it. And so now you've given us an assignment. I'm just gonna be fine some of that video of when and who we came.

Milton Allimadi (49:41.0)
That was worth an experience, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (49:57.181)
You

Milton Allimadi (49:59.004)
That would be awesome even to show some of it at Sankofa, you know, if it's available. That could be a Sankofa experience right there. You know, watch it for like half an hour and then let people interact.

Greg Kimathi Carr (50:05.904)
yes!

Greg Kimathi Carr (50:09.741)
Yes. Yes.

That's a greeting. You know what? Thank you, Barbara. Yeah, because we both we. Well, no, no, no, not be there. You know, you just got to get.

Milton Allimadi (50:16.178)
Yes sir, I would be there. I would be there.

Aya Fubara Eneli (50:20.191)
And I would say this, that what you just shared is a blueprint for what parents can do with their youngsters during the summer. It doesn't have to be some program outside of your home. You could choose an author, choose a book. And of course, as the parent, discipline yourself to read the book as well.

Milton Allimadi (50:31.278)
Aya Fubara Eneli (50:42.129)
and just set up where once a week you and the youngsters sit and have that conversation because we have to show the young people how to do this critical thinking again. And we can't just be dependent on the schools to do it because they are not doing it and they're really not invested in doing it.

Milton Allimadi (50:54.631)
Yes.

Greg Kimathi Carr (51:04.034)
That's right. That's exactly right. Exactly right. That's exactly right. And sometimes the critique can be so strident. You mentioned Sancov, Bob, Milton. I think that's a great idea. You know, they'd be down for it. We all know. I think about highly Garima, who can be very warm and inviting. But when you get him on capitalism, buddy, he going to he going to put some hot fire on every children, babies. There's people coming in on street. Don't matter. And so that I think about how.

Adesoji Iginla (51:04.829)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (51:08.701)
So.

Mmm.

Greg Kimathi Carr (51:33.284)
I'm sure maybe now you get another assignment and look to see if and when and Googie has been in conversation with Garima because I people like Carlos Moore, so many others he has been in conversation with around this question of class, around this question of capitalism. But I'm sure you would have some thoughts about this because, you know, his work, as we know, the craft, the craft of the artist making that critique of capitalism possible by inviting people into looking at

to the everyday lives, you know, and critiquing power that's closest to them. know, a lot of students came in with an analysis of elected officials and black quote unquote elites, because something Torman knew, you know, as we know, whether it devil on the cross, or even when thinking about Armada, people who wasn't yet born, you will critique these people who claim to be pushing for independence, but you're wearing the white wigs, as you often make that point in terms of the barristers. You can never forget that.

Milton Allimadi (52:04.112)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (52:25.206)
Exactly. I can never get over that one.

Adesoji Iginla (52:27.773)
Thanks

Greg Kimathi Carr (52:30.36)
But the googly would make fun of them, I mean, so yeah, of course you gotta burn some down. Who you gonna play, man? Because you're letting these regular people realize you people have betrayed us. Because you're victims, but in this, no, I'm not a victim. I'm lording you. I'm the elite. I'm the one that's supposed to try. No, now.

I will allow you to be a victim so we can be in solidarity. But if you don't choose being a victim like me, we're gonna have to fight y'all. And it's more of us than y'all. So it's a very sneaky, kind of subversive form of solidarity building and organizing. anyway, I'll stop here.

Milton Allimadi (52:58.0)
That's the good part.

Milton Allimadi (53:01.877)
Absolutely. So comrades, I actually have to run meet a brother visiting from Namibia and he's leaving. Yeah, he's leaving later this evening. So I will let you continue the conversation and I'll catch the rest of it later on online. So peace and blessings. Alutha kontinua.

Greg Kimathi Carr (53:09.091)
Mm!

Adesoji Iginla (53:19.291)
haha

Greg Kimathi Carr (53:19.683)
Yes, yes, thank you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:22.088)
it.

Adesoji Iginla (53:22.109)
Yeah, we can trust that.

Milton Allimadi (53:22.826)
Thank you, thank you brother.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:26.591)
You know as you all were talking and I did so I'm sure you have some questions for us But just things that have come up as we're talking both of you had mentioned devil on a cross and of course I'm thinking of the theme of Spirituality and religion that runs through a lot of his novels in how

Adesoji Iginla (53:28.541)
So.

Aya Fubara Eneli (53:48.273)
in addition to capturing our language, how spiritual, the religions that have been imposed in Africa have also stunted our development. But then I was, as you were talking, I was thinking, hmm, what are all these spiritual themes? Right now we have sinners in the movie theaters, and of course we have this book, Devil on a Cross. And so just how all of these things interplay and just the thought that crossed my mind.

Adesoji Iginla (54:11.101)
Yeah.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:16.627)
But I also wanted to point out the 10 points of the Asmara Declaration that Ngooghee definitely embraced. If you don't mind, I'm just gonna go through them really quickly, because I think they're really instructive for us. Number one, African languages must take on the duty, the responsibility, and the challenge of speaking for the continent.

Greg Kimathi Carr (54:23.329)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (54:28.753)
Go on.

Aya Fubara Eneli (54:39.433)
So wouldn't it be great for some group to be having this conversation in an African language? The vitality and equality of African languages must be recognized as a basis for the future empowerment of African peoples. Equality of African languages, right? The diversity of African languages reflects the rich cultural heritage of Africa and must be used as an instrument of African unity, not to keep us fragmented.

Number four, dialogue among African languages is essential. Ayikwama is doing this work. African languages must use the instrument of translation to advance communication among all people, including the disabled. Number five, all African children have the unalienable right to attend school and learn in their mother tongues. And of course, my father is of this generation of Ngugiwationgo and they were not allowed.

not just to learn, but to speak their indigenous languages, their mother tongue in schools. By the time I got to school, you could be enrolled in Igbo, Hausa, or Yoruba, but it was still kind of frowned upon outside of class to speak in those languages, interestingly enough. Number six, every African has the right to access information in their own language, which is not the case in most African countries.

Adesoji Iginla (55:44.305)
the tongue.

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:09.727)
African languages must be used for official purposes at all levels of government. The effective and rapid development of science and technology in Africa depends on the use of African languages as a medium of instruction in African schools and universities. African literature and oral traditions in African languages must be recognized, promoted, and given equal status with literature in European languages. I did not experience that growing up in Nigeria.

And then finally, number 10, publishers, writers, and translators must be encouraged and supported to produce and disseminate literature in African languages.

Adesoji Iginla (56:53.425)
How many, how many, how many is that?

Aya Fubara Eneli (56:54.847)
10 points of the Asmara Declaration.

Adesoji Iginla (56:57.277)
Okay. Can I also add one more? I'm going to be cheeky and add one more. Can you imagine if our justice system operates in our languages?

Aya Fubara Eneli (57:09.79)
no, of course not.

Greg Kimathi Carr (57:13.885)
No, no, no, that's why the,

Aya Fubara Eneli (57:14.813)
Because the justice system isn't even ours.

Greg Kimathi Carr (57:19.809)
That's right.

Adesoji Iginla (57:20.057)
No, no, I'm just saying. But if we were to operate in our languages, most of what obtains in the criminal code and what have you will basically be tossed aside because once you take a grandmother in there and you begin to tell them you have to swear before this and it's like, no, I don't believe in that. I'm going to swear before this. You have to then revamp everything.

Aya Fubara Eneli (57:24.137)
Yeah, that would be different.

Greg Kimathi Carr (57:43.553)
Yes. You know, it's funny you talk about the oath and she pulled her another descendant of Africans who were captive and who wrestles the language as we all know, opens the first article in her ongoing work on African legal studies, African legal studies with that very example of the oath. And as they're in Louisiana and they have these continental Africans who have been human trafficked who

are now being brought up on quote unquote charges to try to condemn some Africans for engaging in acts of resistance. And they have them swear on the Bible. So they do it. It's no problem. And then they say, well, in the official court records, they say took an oath to tell the truth. And of course, what they never what they never understand, which Angie brings up, and I just said, what you just explained beautifully is, of course, they put their hands in that book and raise their hand and took a oath. First of all,

They don't know what their book is. Second of all, they have no fidelity in an oath to anything. So of course we'll do this because it means absolutely nothing to us. so therefore, but the oath they take is to their ancestors, to their mother. And you didn't ask us to swear to that. So we're under no obligation to tell you the truth. didn't show fidelity to anything we concerned about. And so in terms of language, know, we had this language stuffed into our mouths, all three of us, albeit in different circumstances.

For me, unlike you all in a very degree, we didn't have an indigenous continental African language. And Alissa, if you there in the UK, somewhere between me and Aya, who is back and forth between Nigeria and the United States, who gets the opportunity to learn a regional, national language like Igbo, but also a local language. And so to deal with the politics even of internal African.

colonialism in terms of the dominant African language, which Ngoogie, of course, coming from the Kikuyu, I'm writing Kikuyu. Well, how do the Lujos feel about that? How do the other dozens of Africans, know, the key Swahili speakers and regionally, yes, but there are local African languages and Ngoogie is grappling with that even in terms of African or African stuff. So I'm saying I'll have to say that for us to be engaged in a conversation around reclaiming language, you know, allows also the point of entry to say that while language is the

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:00:11.38)
bearer of culture. Language never died, which is why in that first chapter something torn turned new. He talks about lingua fam. You try to starve the language and then lingua side where you try to wipe out the language. He said, these kind of Africans and he writes about Toni Morrison and Dunbar. gestured that you put English in their mouth, underneath that is a sensibility that you couldn't kill. You starved their language, but it was something torn and new. They created a way to preserve some of it. So when

Black people go to court and swear and they say, okay, y'all took an oath. I don't believe in anything. I'll say whatever I need to say. I don't believe in you. They would say, well, you're a contempt or you violate the law. No, in order to violate the law, I would have to believe in the law. I do not believe in the law. So this is cosplay for me. So that act of resistance is very interesting you brought up the oath because that's a complicated conversation for African. And plus we know they don't believe.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:05.117)
Okay, don't. Okay, don't.

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:01:05.599)
You know, Donald Trump took off. So why should we believe it if you don't believe it and you don't want to go to hell? Let's all lie in the courtroom because courtroom is full of lies. But then again, I'll leave that to our lawyer because I know it's about to last in the courtroom every day. So.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:19.846)
You

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:22.943)
Don't have me lying on here.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:23.695)
So you talk. Dr. Cai, you talk. Yes,

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:01:29.234)
You took you took a oath. That's right, you remember the bar you had you took a oath. I'm And officer of the court indeed you are.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:01:31.039)
I'm an officer of the court.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:35.514)
You

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:40.295)
You talked about, Dr. Kha, you talked about the great elder coming to sit with the kids and talking about the power of languages. There's a quote here attributed to him. have become a language warrior. I want to join all others in the world who are fighting for marginalized languages. No language is ever marginal to the community that created the language. Languages are like musical instruments. You don't see, let there be a few global instruments or let there be

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:01:40.455)
and

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:10.809)
only one type of voice all singers can sing. So as we sit here, you know, celebrating his life, would you say that victory can be declared or is still a battle in progress?

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:02:28.868)
no, no, I don't think it can't. It can be. And we know we lose languages every day. Well, not every every moment languages are being attacked. And, you know, the beautiful thing about languages can be recovered. And so in Googie, you know, I think about what you are doing with Emma Johnson, with the Rigo Wari, with the library there in Oporto town.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:32.861)
Mmm.

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:02:52.217)
Imagine being at a place where the language that your ancestors spoke has been under assault for centuries and that as Ngoogie so powerfully illustrates across his work, the assault that first came with people from other places was bred into people who look exactly like you, who understand the language.

the way that your ancestors understood it, but who have been bred out of respecting it and who are now doing the work themselves directly. So you can't even distinguish between the people who assaulted you initially and the people who got assaulted because they could bred an elite to do the dirty work themselves. And then other members of that same class, loosely speaking, commit what Malala Karenga would call a class suicide, having been awakened themselves and say, no, now we're going to do what J. Karez would call

an act of civil war, meaning what? We're gonna have to fight the very elite that we were training to embrace to begin to restore. And then ultimately the people who have been assaulted the most, the vast majority of people who have those local languages are now approached by someone out of that same elite that was trained to suppress and oppress them to help restore them using the thing that they should never have left in the first place. So this tension then, this cognitive dissonance, I think we all experience it.

because we are part of that group. Then Gugi is saying was trained to mislead the rest of everybody. then, so when we turn on that, the people who we have been trained to oppress, how do we balance between the idea that no, we have everything we need. No, the language you speak, the local connections, the very intimate notion of family community, that is the thing we want to center. How do we balance that with the idea that when they see us coming,

In some ways, the natural kind of, well, not natural, the socialized predisposition is to elevate us for saying the very thing we're telling them not to center. thank you for coming. No, no, no. We're trying to. No, no, no. Thank you. So thank you for bringing us this way. No, no, no. We're not bringing you any. The whole point is, I mean, in some ways it is insidious the way that this hierarchy works. People thanking people simply for saying that the thing that you

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:05:06.735)
know the longest, the deepest, the most is the most valuable thing. I don't know. I don't know if you have any thoughts because it's attention we deal with every day up to and including right now.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:05:16.467)
I would say that I was having a conversation with my parents happened to be visiting me in the US right now. And I was having a conversation with my father about his childhood. I'm always trying to just like mine information from him. And I said, know, how were children disciplined?

And he gave a version that I think Africans in America can relate to the whole, know, don't spare the rod and spoil a child kind of concept, you know, that kind of harsh discipline. And I said, okay, was that who we were or is that who we became? Because I know from talking to people like E.J. Alaguah and all of that, and there are many other writers who talk about

the extreme abuse, physical abuse that they experienced under these colonizers as they went through the education system. And so my father says, well, know, my father didn't treat me that way. And I said, okay, let's go to nursery. What people would term as nursery rhymes. I said, what songs did our people sing to children? Because I think in that language, we can get to how we saw children.

And he starts trying to remember some songs in Ibani and he's singing and I'm like, I don't speak Ibani fluently. So I'm like, can you translate? And I said, so in that, in that language, do you hear this hostility that seems to be prevalent now in how adults.

in many African societies now treats children. And he brought up the concept of children were supposed to be seen and not necessarily heard, but then they had their own age groups and they had their own agency in other ways. And so in having that conversation with him and as we're talking is that I'm thinking through some of Ngugi's writing and the importance of language as culture, the importance of language carrying the collective memory of...

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:16.925)
people's experience in history so that we're not just reading ourselves as white people, as colonizers have written us, but we are going back to the roots and really remembering. It just really hit me. And so one of the exercises that he doesn't know yet that I'm going to do with my dad is I want him to read the first chapter of something torn and new. And I want us to have some conversations.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:43.712)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:07:45.247)
based on his experiences, I'm not gonna make it, first of all, I can't make my dad do nothing, okay? But he's also 87, which is the year that the age that Baba Ngugi was when he made his transition. And I just wanna see what that brings up for him. And I just encourage everyone to...

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:07:45.626)
Yes!

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:54.925)
Ha ha ha

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:08:07.066)
you

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:08:07.951)
wherever you are in the diaspora, we need to be having these conversations and really trying to reconnect our memory, getting back to who were we, who should we be moving forward. for me and Googie, just brings that up time and time again, even when he addresses the issue of patriarchy and gender roles and things of that nature in his writing as well.

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:08:35.77)
Yes. Forgive me, forgive me, comrades. I have to move myself. They got me committed to something. I'll be tuned in as which in transit, but I just want to thank you all for letting me come in. Thank you, Aya, for making sure that, you know, I just remind you, I just want to be with you. And I just told you, work you're doing, man, is brilliant.

And thank you brother and everybody listening like share with like share subscribe and get in this weekly conversation. So who's, who's coming up on the revolutionary after woman this week.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:59.077)
No, thank you.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:08.254)
you

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:08.893)
Queen Idia. Queen Idia of Benin.

Greg Kimathi Carr (01:09:12.154)
Ooh, hey y'all, y'all don't know about that? I'm gonna say less, find out, get in, get tapped in. All right, y'all, love y'all, I'll see you soon. of course, thank you, thank you, Bob. See you all in a minute. All right, bye.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:19.697)
Thank you very much for coming.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:26.739)
And then there were two.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:26.811)
Yes, yes, that has...

Yes, I mean, we must, we just start the episode of World Resistance.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:09:37.531)
No, no, no, we won't.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:42.937)
No, mean, it's been, it's his life has been a remarkable one. And for everyone that has come and joined us, I hope you liked and, you know, like, share and subscribe, as the good doctor said. Ongoogie was not just a cultural icon, but he left, left so many, so many books. I mean, some of which he wrote

We're reading about him, some in which he patrolled. Yeah, there you go.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:10:14.163)
Some of the ones written about him are so expensive it's ridiculous. But anyway.

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:19.925)
Mm-hmm. I mean, OK, so this is the one we've been talking about most of the time today. Ngugi wa Fiongo, Something Turned and New. You've got Decolonizing the Mind. This is another classic of his. This is his Prison Memoirs. Wrestling with the Devil, a prison memoir.

He wrote the introduction to this book in 1974, and he wrote this with another entrance of ours, on Women and Resistance with Bessie Heard.

This he wrote in London. This was while he joined for the lectures. Essays move in the center.

Homecoming?

Was this one? Yes, bottle of a pen. Yes, I actually love this one. In the name of the mother.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:11:33.639)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:11:36.709)
Writers in politics. This he wrote during the pandemic. Secure the base.

Again, he is a go-to. The Language of Languages is a more recent one. Another one is coming out actually mid-June. This he wrote in concert with others. He didn't want to write it. could clearly, when you're reading his take in it, you play, he didn't want to be part of it, but he did anyway. And he wrote also about the Mau Mau.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:11:52.945)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (01:12:15.835)
with Miseromogo, another late enterer. And then there is one other one that I want people to actually look at. Hopefully, let me not crash my books on the floor. Yeah, I know that will happen. Yeah, this was FESTAG77. And one of the guys that was invited to attend FESTAG77 was Ungiwathiongo.

Unfortunately, he couldn't because he was in detention. And so,

They wrote a piece on him instead. There you are.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:12:53.055)
Looking very cool.

Adesoji Iginla (01:12:56.561)
Looking dapper.

So yeah, again, go on.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:13:01.009)
And there are a few more. Pedals of blood.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:07.143)
Pettus of blood, yeah, that's a novo. Yeah, that's another novo.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:13:07.431)
The river between.

Matagari.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:14.139)
Novo?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:13:14.667)
Grain of wheat so you can choose whatever where wherever your entry point is and this one is birth of a dream weaver I Don't have the back of it anymore. and then of course all the ones that you've mentioned So like I said over 25 books that he's written or co-written and then if you start getting into books that have been written about him a Ton more yes

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:18.952)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:40.509)
Yeah. If you're talking about books that have been written about him, there he is. Then he was James Ongugi. yeah. it's been, the man is a well-celebrated writer. I would enjoy people to actually read his essays. His essays.

are just treasure troves of information. In fact, his essays had led me to go get some other books that I didn't even know existed. So just like

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:14:18.909)
Well, so you're biased, and I would say this, you're biased towards the essays, but I would say just like Ayi Querma, he does a fantastic job with the so-called novels because you see the themes and he lays it out in the language in a way that people can really relate to. It's not an intellectual discourse, although it is definitely intellectual. And so even with his book, The Perfect Nine, I mean, he'd always,

Adesoji Iginla (01:14:47.506)
Mm-hmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:14:48.549)
had women in his books. But initially they were kind of symbols of tradition and morality, those kind of things. But when you get to his book, The Perfect Nine, which was written completely in Gikuyu, he now, I think more specifically, talks about the matriarchy. He talks about, some people would say, the feminine gaze. And in that book,

really centers women as heroes, as healers, as nation builders, and speaks to the fact that we really cannot talk about the liberation of Africa if women are not, you know, centered in that conversation. He says the African woman must not be a footnote to the revolution. She is the text itself. We must decolonize our gender. We must decolonize gender.

Adesoji Iginla (01:15:32.797)
deliberate.

Adesoji Iginla (01:15:44.701)
Mmm.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:15:47.453)
in our language and our stories. And so for budding writers, know, just something to think about, you know, that this man was definitely focused on that we need to speak the language of the people, wherever you are, right? You need to create the indigenous forms of whether it's oral storytelling, proverbs, myths, collective memory, because...

These things are dying off with people and we need to see culture as the soil from which freedom grows. And so if that soil is polluted, if we let other people write us out or tell us who we are and what our culture is, this liberation that we say we want is going to stay elusive.

Adesoji Iginla (01:16:20.775)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:16:41.405)
Wow. When you talk of.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:16:43.183)
And when you talked earlier about this music and songs, you know, there's a quote from him, I think he says, you can kill the singer, but you cannot kill the song. And certainly his work lives on in so many ways. And you can actually, you know, find him on YouTube, you know, in interviews and things like that. But he's an ancestor that we definitely want to lift up and study more intently and follow.

Adesoji Iginla (01:16:55.525)
This song.

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:13.725)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. We stand on the shoulders of giants, as the world say. And he is one giant there, you know. And we also need to celebrate the ones that are still here, whilst they're gone. You know, we still have Wolesho Inka, Aikuyama. I mean, but the numbers are growing thin. So that's the problem. Numbers are growing thin. They say when...

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:17:36.671)
And we don't have time to get into it today, but I would make some very serious distinctions between him and Wole Schoenke in terms of their writing styles.

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:48.519)
Okay.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:17:51.875)
one wrote for the people and one wrote for the Nobel Prize and the one who wrote for the Nobel Prize got the Nobel Prize. I'm just saying but I might be totally wrong. Nobody come for me. Don't come for me.

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:59.453)
Oh yeah, okay. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. I'll give you that. But you know, yeah. I mean, well, yeah, you know, enough said, enough said.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:12.255)
I know Wale is your country man. He's Yoruba like you, so don't come for me.

Adesoji Iginla (01:18:17.733)
Enough said.

No, I mean, well, the congi master did his bit. did his bit. you know, and kudos to all of them because that time they were writing, they had no one to look up to other than themselves. So that in itself is worthy of celebrating. Is worthy of celebrating. These guys, when I said no one to look up to, I'm like, if I wanted to

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:42.545)
They had no one to look up to?

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:47.785)
They didn't have their storytellers.

Adesoji Iginla (01:18:51.485)
No, they had storytellers, but what I meant is imprint. Imprint, imprint, imprint, imprint. That's what I meant. So yeah, I mean, I've thanked everyone for coming through. Yourself, I am Fubara Neli Esquire, always bringing the angles that are often overlooked and...

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:18:54.653)
Got you. Okay. Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19:20.633)
I am greatly indebted to you and the good doctor, comrade Milton who had to jump off. And until next week, sister.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19:33.905)
Again, brother, you are doing incredible work. You're opening our eyes. You kept me awake last night going back through these books. God bless you. I noticed that one time when all four of us were on the screen, I'm like, everybody got glasses on. Now that could be a function of age.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19:49.245)
That's true. That's true.

Aya Fubara Eneli (01:19:54.471)
But it could also be a function of trying to digest this work. And of course, I'm nowhere in the category of you three amazing gentlemen. And I'm just humbled and honored to be part of this conversation. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19:55.869)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:20:09.021)
I mean, your presence is invaluable. yes, again, you can catch us again on Wednesday, Women and Resistance, as this time we take on the life and times of Queen Edia of Benin. And that promises to be very interesting conversation. Until then, from me, it is good night and God bless.