EP 4 Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o 's "Decolonising the Mind" I African News Review 🌍

In this conversation, Adesoji Iginla and Milton Allimadi delve into Ngugi wa Thiong'o's book Decolonising the Mind and discuss colonialism's profound impact on African languages and cultures. 

They explore how language serves as a tool of domination and the importance of reclaiming indigenous languages for true liberation. The discussion highlights the ongoing struggle against cultural imperialism and the need for African writers and intellectuals to prioritise their native languages. 

The conversation also touches on the historical context of Africa's independence movements and the lingering effects of colonialism on contemporary African identity and politics. In this conversation, Adesoji Iginla and Milton Allimadi discuss the critical role of education, cultural identity, and historical awareness in the development of Africa. 

They explore the impact of colonialism on African culture and the importance of theatre as a tool for liberation. 

The dialogue emphasises the need for true independence in Africa, highlighting the role of writers and intellectuals in shaping a new narrative for the continent.

Takeaways

*Colonialism used language as a tool of domination.
*Reclaiming indigenous languages is essential for liberation.
*Language carries the culture and values of a people.
*Rejecting one's language is akin to rejecting oneself.
*Language can serve as a vehicle for rebellion.
*Africa's fate has often been decided behind conference tables.
*No African country has truly won its independence.
*The importance of literature in shaping African identity.
*Cultural imperialism continues to affect African societies.
*Understanding history is crucial for reclaiming cultural identity. 
*Education should reflect African history and culture.
*Cultural identity is crucial for African development.
*Theatre can be a powerful tool for social change.
*Colonialism has lasting effects on African societies.
*True independence requires a shift in mindset and education.
*Writers play a vital role in shaping political consciousness.
*Historical awareness is essential for liberation movements.
*African states must prioritise their own cultural narratives.
*Young people are key to driving change in Africa.
*The global economic system perpetuates neo-colonialism.

Chapters
00:00  Introduction to Decolonizing the Mind
03:00 Colonialism and Language as Tools of Domination
05:54 The Importance of Indigenous Languages
09:02 Cultural Identity and Language Reclamation
12:01 Language as a Vehicle for Rebellion
14:50 The Role of Literature in African Identity
17:47 Negotiating Independence: A False Freedom
21:09 The Impact of Language on African Politics
24:02 The Legacy of Colonialism in Modern Africa
27:03 Conclusion: Embracing African Languages and Cultures
34:46 The Role of Education in African Development
39:10  Cultural Identity and Historical Awareness
45:31 The Power of Theatre in Liberation
51:52 The Impact of Colonialism on African Culture
57:50 The Need for True Independence in Africa

Transcript

Milton Allimadi (00:00.27)
here.

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.239)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (00:04.716)
Yes, greetings, greetings, and welcome to another episode of African News Review. And this review is going to take the form of a book review, which we've decided in the course of the year that we'll do at the end of each month. We'll take a book of historical relevance with a contemporary theme, and we basically would have a look at it. So today,

Without further ado, we're going to be looking at Ongugi Watiyongo's Decolonizing the Mind.

This book, you can see the comrades is already getting excited. Yes. So Decolonizing the Mind by Ungugiwa Fiongo was published in 1986 on the James Conry imprint of the Heinemann Press. And it's a book or collection of essays initially given as lectures. And

Milton Allimadi (00:47.722)
Yes, sir.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08.354)
The lectures are themed The Language of African Literature, The Language of African Theater, The Language of African Fiction, The Quest of Relevance, and the entire book is 148 pages if you count the index. Now, I'll give a brief summary of the book, which I did write down. It's Dicolous in the Mind. It's a powerful collection of essays, like I said earlier, by Kenyans.

writer Ongugiwa Fiongo, exploring how colonialism used language, too, as a tool of domination, and how reclaiming indigenous languages is essential for true liberation. Ongugi, in this book, argues that colonialism did not just occupy African lands, but it also invaded African minds by forcing them to abandon their native languages in favor of English, French, and other European languages.

He explains that language carries culture and culture carries values, memories, and a worldview of a people. When African writers and thinkers express themselves in colonial languages, he said, they unconsciously reinforce colonial structures and alienate themselves from their own community. Throughout this book, which will go to...

Ungugu shares his personal journey explaining why he decided to stop writing in English and instead write in his native Kikuyu language. He critiques the westernized African elite for perpetuating cultural imperialism and calls for African writers, artists, and intellectuals to prioritize indigenous language in their works, educational system, and national discourse. Your initial thoughts, Comrade.

Milton Allimadi (03:00.637)
Well, as he says elsewhere, that European colonialism hijacked Africa's economies. And by hijacking the economies, you hijack the politics, and it also hijacked the culture and the language. Now, when we talk about to what extent has Africa been decolonized, we had formal

Adesoji Iginla (03:22.339)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (03:30.389)
flag independence where the European leaders were replaced by Africans. Yet the economy is still controlled by the former colonial powers and the new power of course, which is the United States and its allies such as Japan, for example.

What about the culture? What about the language? We never even attempted to decolonize that, to take that back. As you know, and I'm sure, I mean, we're familiar with the English colonies because we are products of English colonies, but the French even had it work. But during the colonial regime, you have to abandon

Adesoji Iginla (04:14.35)
You

Milton Allimadi (04:21.191)
your name, your African name, and you had to abandon your African language and culture. And in order to achieve, in order to be rewarded, recognized, elevated, promoted, accepted, embraced, you have to embrace the language of the colonizing power. And when you do that, you have to repudiate and reject your own language and your own culture.

But by rejecting your language and your culture, you're actually rejecting yourself as well. And you're rejecting fellow Americans. And that is why language has always been very important to Ngugi. He said even when he was writing in English, when he attended a conference in Uganda in 1962, at that time he was really bothered. He saw the contradiction. That conference was a conference

about Africans who were expressing their literature through the English language. And he was complaining. He said because automatically it excluded Africans who were engaged in literature but just happened to be using African languages. So he's been bothered about that aspect for very long time. And that is what you just summarize in your introduction.

Adesoji Iginla (05:24.768)
English language.

Adesoji Iginla (05:45.122)
Thank you. Thank you. So I opened the Gambits with his take in the introduction to the book. He said.

The misleading stock interpretation of African realities have been popularized by the Western media, which likes to deflect people from seeing that imperialism is still the root cause of many problems in Africa. Unfortunately, many intellectuals have fallen victims, and incurably so, to that scheme, and they are unable to see the divide and rule colonial origins of explaining any difference of intellectual outlook or any political clashes in terms of the

ethnic origins of the actor. No man or woman can choose their biological nationalities. The conflict between people cannot be explained in terms of that which is fixed, the invariables that is. Otherwise, the problems between the two peoples would always be same at all times and places. So invariably what he's saying here is if the language is stagnant,

you can't express any cultural realities in colonial languages, how could you truly claim to be free? Or what do you think?

Milton Allimadi (07:02.85)
Exactly.

or even beyond that, because for example, and I think for audience, it's easier to think of it this way. Think of China.

China, major civilization.

Why should China embrace English? Why should China embrace French? Why? Think about that. So if that's not acceptable to China, why should it be acceptable to Africa and Africa?

or Japan, ancient cultures and civilizations. They engage fully in the global economy. They engage in English or any other of the European languages. They accept from Europe, from the United States, what they want to accept and integrate it into their Chinese or Japanese culture. With us, we start upside down.

Adesoji Iginla (07:40.664)
Mm. Mm. Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (07:46.712)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (08:10.946)
We start off with English, English identification, English concepts, English thoughts, English concepts of the state, English concepts of governance, English concept of what it means to be quote unquote civilized. And then we say, what from Africa will we pull and integrate? And the same thing for the ones who were victimized by French imperialism. We start off with.

the idea, our concept of the universe is French. And then after we start from that premise, which one of our African attributes are we going to allow into the house? Can you imagine the Chinese or Japanese operating that way? So to me, it goes beyond just language. It's the concept of the world, the concept of the universe.

Adesoji Iginla (08:55.34)
Hahaha!

Adesoji Iginla (09:02.742)
Mmm. Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (09:10.658)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (09:11.19)
the concept of yourself and what role you play in that universe. So for the Chinese, the universe is China.

It is the interest of China and what will help China that I will now allow into the house from outside. The same approach for Japan, right? You can't say the same for Africa. How can Africans be asking themselves, what aspect of Africa should I tolerate? That's what you're saying, you know?

So that it means you've already surrendered or you've yielded too much ground even before the battle has begun. You see?

Adesoji Iginla (09:58.968)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (10:03.061)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (10:04.646)
And that's a problem. That's a problem whether you accept N'Gugi's premise or not. That is important for us to re-embrace our indigenous languages. Even if you don't want to accept that, I think it's going to be difficult for you to argue against the analogy that I just presented.

Adesoji Iginla (10:07.438)
Mm, mm.

Milton Allimadi (10:33.064)
China starts off as China and then says, I will choose what I want from the rest of the world. On the other hand, we start off by rejecting Africa. That's a problem.

Adesoji Iginla (10:51.566)
It is a problem. mean, he goes further. says, in the quote in here, he says, there are many imputes into the actual formation of a line of argument. And even the formal arrangements, example, i.e. a book, the very words we use are a product of our collective history.

Milton Allimadi (10:51.793)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (11:15.768)
So he's saying, now you've written a book, but you've written it in English. Will the power of your history be described accurately in that language? The answer is no. So again, is that not a watered down version of who you are as a person?

Milton Allimadi (11:41.964)
Of course, absolutely. So somebody might say that he's right, he's correct.

implementing it may create challenges. That's somebody playing the devil's advocate might say that. That yes, it's true. If we individually, each of us think about our African languages, the stories we grew up hearing, and he discusses that too as he was growing up, history, right? Oral tradition, oral literature, you could say.

Adesoji Iginla (12:01.955)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (12:19.83)
Yep, oral tradition.

Milton Allimadi (12:23.49)
Each time the story or a story was told, it would be transformed, right? These stories were not just lifeless stories. The stories evolved. There would be some basic characters, right? Whether it's the tortoise, whether it's the hare, whether it's the snake, whether it's the tannite monster, right?

Adesoji Iginla (12:32.683)
Mm. Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (12:42.456)
Correct? Correct.

or the forks.

Milton Allimadi (12:51.117)
but they would be involved in different types of challenges and engagements, you see? So the language is also evolving. And it's impossible to capture those stories in any other language but the language in which it is originated, right? So we have to accept that. And if you're going to have translations, the translations will never be superior.

Adesoji Iginla (12:51.277)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (12:57.997)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (13:11.726)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (13:21.827)
to the original story itself. Because there's some things that cannot be translated into other languages, you know, even much more challenging and non-African language, you see? I can see translations from African language to another African language. Even then, you might miss something, but there would be much more familiarity than opposed to a European language.

Adesoji Iginla (13:26.019)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (13:32.728)
Mmm. Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (13:51.487)
and the translation would be much more closer. You see? So somebody would say, somebody says, okay, so why don't you master the European language so that you, the speaker of the African language, can translate it yourself? Why don't you be the translator? If you mastered French, why don't you write in French? Because you would be translating.

Adesoji Iginla (13:52.792)
with you.

Adesoji Iginla (13:56.664)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (14:21.227)
that language, you see? So what is the problem with that? The problem is that what he's saying is that we are not promoting our African languages, meaning that even those stories that used to evolve that contained so much historical knowledge, by not promoting those languages, you're killing that stream of history. So it's not just talking about.

not being able to translate into a European language. But he's talking about the other side as well. We are not, in fact, we are not only not promoting the African language, we are attacking them. You know, we are undermining them. He spoke about how when he was growing up,

If you are caught speaking Kikuyu, his language, in high school, you would be whipped. Corporal punishment. Because you are not accepting English.

Adesoji Iginla (15:20.152)
Yeah? Yeah?

Adesoji Iginla (15:26.774)
If I'm of rebellion.

Milton Allimadi (15:28.561)
Exactly.

Adesoji Iginla (15:31.106)
Hmm. Okay. So when it comes to, he says in the chapter one, the language of African literature, he says, and I read, on one hand is imperialism in its colonial and neocolonial phases continuously press Gagnon, the African hand to the plow, to turn the soil over and to put blinkers on him to make him view the path ahead only as determined for him.

by the master armed with the Bible and the sword. In other words, imperialism continues to control the economy, the politics, and cultures of Africa. On the other hand, and pitted against it are the ceaseless struggles of African people to liberate their economy, politics, and culture from the European-American-based stranglehold to usher in a new era of true communal self-regulation and self-determination.

So what do you read into that in terms of, I mean, we do hear every week in terms of media, you know, giving historical context to stories that we find in the Western press. Now we also have some of us who write for these organizations, but we write in the language of those organizations. So effectively where what,

Frantz Fanon will call black skin and white marks were the face of imperialism. So what he's saying here is now we've put our talent to the use for the imperialist. How do we balk against this kind of homegrown challenge as it were?

Milton Allimadi (17:18.426)
Well, actually to that I would say even he himself acknowledges, you know, I think in his, in the essay, like toward the end, that the language itself alone is not going to be sufficient. The ideology of course is very important. If you're allowed to speak as much Gikuyu as you want, or any other African language,

Adesoji Iginla (17:35.598)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (17:47.683)
and you still fully embrace the ideology of imperialism, then that is of no use either. It has to go hand in hand. Understand your history. And I think he would answer a question like that by saying yes, but by knowing your language and accepting your language, you would also then know your history. You would know that if you're Ikuyu,

The land was taken from you.

Milton Allimadi (18:21.731)
by the Europeans. And you were then forced to pay taxes. And in order to earn money to pay taxes, you ended up working on the land that used to belong to you. But now you're selling your labor to the European who displaced you from the land. So I think, and obviously later on when it gets to the drama and the plays, he proves that in fact.

Adesoji Iginla (18:23.907)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (18:33.591)
on your own land.

Adesoji Iginla (18:43.817)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (18:52.132)
He's not only talking about language, you see? When he says language, actually means culture, he means history, he means rebellion. So I think language, in his case, the word should be seen a little more in a bigger, broader aspect. Not just, you know, I speak French, I speak Russian, I speak English, I speak Portuguese, no.

Adesoji Iginla (19:12.493)
Broder.

Milton Allimadi (19:22.851)
You have to ask yourself, why is it that somebody speaks a particular language, right? And then everything that comes with that answer will also give you the answer to the question, why was the issue of language so important and still is very important to Ngugiwate Ono.

Adesoji Iginla (19:41.646)
So I would enjoy people to actually get the book. It's written in 1986 and very much still relevant. It's Decolonizing the Mind by Ngugiwa Fiongo. So still on literature, he writes, it seems.

It is the fate of Africa to have a destiny always decided around conference tables in the metropolises of the Western world. Her submergence from self-governing communities into colonies was decided in Berlin. And her more recent transitions into new colonials along the same boundaries was negotiated around the same tables in London, Paris, Brussels, and Lisbon. The Berlin-drawn divisions which Africa

Milton Allimadi (20:22.38)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (20:36.798)
still living was obviously economic and political despite the claims of the Bible-wielding diplomats. It's also cultural. Berlin in 1884 saw the division of Africa into different languages of the European powers. The African countries as colonies and even today as neocolonies came to be defined and define themselves in terms of the languages of Europe, English-speaking, French-speaking or Portuguese-speaking African countries.

Milton Allimadi (21:09.131)
All right, so, well, the important thing he spoke about was that.

Adesoji Iginla (21:09.858)
What's your take on that?

Milton Allimadi (21:17.395)
Africa's fate being determined behind a conference table. And of course, for people that are not familiar with the Berlin Conference, that was the conference in 1884, from November 1884 to February 1885, where the European powers of the day, primarily England, France, Portugal, Belgium,

Germany, Italy, Spain.

decided to partition Africa into their spheres, into their colonies, European colonies. And the primary motive was to avoid potential wars between Europeans, wars for these territories in Africa. They were after the minerals, raw resources, they were after land, and they were after cheap African labor.

And obviously they were industrializing, so they wanted Africans to become consumers of their manufactured products. So they met Africans with no knowledge that Europeans were meeting in Berlin and deciding that you now belong to France, you belong to Britain, you belong to Belgium, Spain, Portugal, and so forth.

So you had the colonial experience. Colonialism was just a much more, a slightly more humane.

Milton Allimadi (23:05.737)
form of slavery. Although in some parts of Africa, no difference. In the Belgian colony, of course, you know, where they were cutting off the hands and feet of people that did not produce enough rubber or deliver enough ivory. There was the same or even worse than some aspects of slavery. And then at the end, when nationalism

Adesoji Iginla (23:14.413)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (23:34.332)
particularly accelerated after World War II, and African countries are now fighting for their independence. How was the issue resolved? Once again, ended up going, the nationalist independence leaders ended up going to resolve the conference, resolve the issue behind a conference table.

in Europe. So for many of the former British colonies, Lancaster, they're very familiar with Lancaster House in London, where the former British colonies, the leaders of the independence movements would go there. They would be sitting on one side, on the other side, the European colonialists, and they would negotiate independence.

Now, if you are negotiating for independence in the capital city of the colonizer, who is in charge? Let's think about it.

Adesoji Iginla (24:43.438)
You

Milton Allimadi (24:46.842)
How is the outcome going to be? So it's not surprising that these so-called independents negotiated primarily in the 1960s have not yielded the benefits of independence to a single African country. The United States, some people forget because the United States is such a global power.

Adesoji Iginla (24:56.75)
became new.

Adesoji Iginla (25:04.364)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (25:16.122)
that the United States was once a colony of Britain. People forget that. So, did George Washington and the other independence fighters, did they go to London to negotiate with the British monarchy about independence for the United States? No, of course not. They had declared the United States of America Declaration of Independence.

Adesoji Iginla (25:17.038)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (25:21.293)
right?

Milton Allimadi (25:46.285)
meaning they determined the vision of governance, the vision of government, the system of economics that they wanted for the United States of America. And that has something to do with how the United States has fared differently and is now a global power while Britain is no longer.

Adesoji Iginla (25:52.44)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (26:15.648)
global power. So Ngugi is telling all of you Africans that Africa was partitioned somewhere in Europe behind a conference table. So-called independence was delivered behind a conference table in European capitals. There's a problem with that. That's what he's saying and I agree with him. There's a big problem with that. You might say

Adesoji Iginla (26:17.719)
yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (26:44.6)
So.

Milton Allimadi (26:45.259)
Africa never, not a single African country has won its independence. So he wants to start thinking like that. And if you think carefully, you will agree that he's correct.

Adesoji Iginla (26:54.12)
Mm. Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (27:03.214)
So moving on from, I mean, so-called independence, he also pointed out that language can also be a vehicle for rebellion. And he cites the case of the Declaration of Emergency over Kenya in 1952, that all schools run by patriotic nationalists was taken over by the colonial regime and were placed under district education boards chaired by Englishmen.

English became the language of my formal education in Kenya. English became more than a language, it was the language and all others had to bow to it in different.

So would you call that a surrender, a cultural surrender itself?

Milton Allimadi (27:47.66)
It was not surrender. It was,

It was a dictatorship imposed upon them.

Adesoji Iginla (27:55.65)
Hmm. Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (27:57.028)
Because what he's saying is that the schools, the nationalistic schools identified by Kenyans were patriotic and were already talking independence of Kenya and were approaching education in a very different way. The British saw that as a threat and they shut those schools down and impose English only as the language of instruction.

Adesoji Iginla (28:25.196)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (28:30.434)
Wow. So now.

You mentioned nationalistic people who thought, OK, we are going to get power. And that's I want to highlight the fact that there were people amongst us who created the sense of the inevitable position of where we're at. And for that, will stay still on the language of African literature. want to read a part where he talked about Leopold Senghor. He said, Senghor had already now had

has now been rewarded by being anointed to a honored place in the French Academy, the institution for safeguarding the purity of French language because he wrote a book. In Malawi, Kamuzubanda had erected its own monument by way of an institution, the Kamuzu Academy, designed to end the brightest popes of Malawi in the mastery of England.

So how is it that we can balk against this if, again, we have black skin and white marks, people wanting to be part of the imperialist class? You have in the case of Leopold Senghor, who wrote most of his books in French, and you had Camus Banda, a trained doctor in the United Kingdom, going back home and erecting

an academy designed to aid the brightest populous in Malawi in their mastery of English language.

Milton Allimadi (30:14.708)
Right. And you see that's part of the problem.

Milton Allimadi (30:22.4)
A lack of knowledge, not so much of it.

Milton Allimadi (30:28.127)
even language.

or history, but really ideology, you see? Or political economy. So people like, and with Tsinghua, there's really no excuse, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (30:36.845)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (30:47.073)
person of that intelligence, you see?

Milton Allimadi (30:52.925)
And mine does well.

not realize that it is not because you know they speak language or they speak French.

that.

Because what they're talking about is not so much the beauty of their language, but the associations with development. And development normally is identified with economic accumulation, you see?

countries that have built

Milton Allimadi (31:34.235)
you know, great cities, great infrastructure, the people have a high standard of living, you see, those are things that are identified with civilization. Instead of deconstructing and knowing that these people had nothing, completely nothing, until they started exploiting the labor of others.

Adesoji Iginla (31:57.326)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (32:04.478)
You know, so there's some books that people just really need to read. They need to read Eric Williams, for example, Capitalism and slavery. And realize that the quest for accumulation and wealth.

Adesoji Iginla (32:15.884)
Capitalism is slavery.

Milton Allimadi (32:26.824)
pushed the British, Europeans, the English, to kidnap fellow Europeans, Englishmen, and send them off to North America to work on plantations, to send them to the Caribbean as indentured labor. So even before Africans were enslaved, the Europeans were actually pretty much enslaving fellow Europeans.

Although, of course, slavery was much worse, right? Because at least in the case of indentured labor, there was a term limit. With the indentured period expired, they were freed. In fact, they were given some piece of land, right? Africans were enslaved because they were much more productive, much more efficient.

and much cheaper because the children would become enslaved as well. And the period had no limit, you see? So now you're exploiting all this and building up wealth. And that is how you build that infrastructure. That's how you build those cities. That's how you industrialize. And then you carried it on to come to Senghor's country and colonize because you wanted to keep growing that wealth.

Adesoji Iginla (33:32.526)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (33:56.003)
and you got Senghor's father and grandfather, you know, to work literally for free and to buy the stuff that you manufactured, you see? It had nothing to do with the fact that they spoke French or they spoke English in the case of Komuzu. So if they were familiar with that history, they would not be venerating the languages of the colonizer.

who deprived him of the opportunity to build the same wealth that was built in England and in France, you see? And that's what Nguge is saying. Of course, he did not lay it out explicitly the way that I just laid out, but he does in his other writings, you see?

Adesoji Iginla (34:32.706)
Yes, yes, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (34:46.444)
Yeah, I mean, you.

Milton Allimadi (34:47.267)
So when you have a Camus saying, I want only Europeans to be teaching Malawians in this school, is that going to advance Malawi? No, in fact, you'd be better off saying, okay, I want only Chinese teaching in the school. And I want them to teach Malawians how China was able to transform itself from a banquet peasant

Adesoji Iginla (35:12.142)
Johannes.

Milton Allimadi (35:16.685)
dominated by European society to where China is today. Take them in Chinese. I don't mind. I would prefer to have that than have the colonizer teach you nonsense in English, you see.

Adesoji Iginla (35:22.861)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (35:27.736)
Hmm. Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (35:34.019)
Boy in friend.

Adesoji Iginla (35:34.338)
There is, what you just said there with regards to the knowledge of history and what has gone before is underscored by a book we've taken on previously, The Ground and My Brothers, where he says in chapter five, African history in the service of black revolution, one of the major dilemmas inherent in the attempt by black people

Milton Allimadi (35:51.914)
Absolutely.

Adesoji Iginla (36:03.234)
to break through the cultural aspect of white imperialism is that posed by the use of historical knowledge as a weapon in our struggle. So again, OK, OK, OK, I see. So that is brilliantly underscored. And there is another book here where that

Milton Allimadi (36:14.249)
Always by my side.

Adesoji Iginla (36:32.151)
Part is also mentioned. Let me quickly find it. it's here. Yeah. And it's a book where it says, one second. I would find that. What is this?

Milton Allimadi (36:47.979)
and

Adesoji Iginla (36:53.556)
Okay, yes. He says, and in this book he says, at the same time that the African-esque blackness of skin was being analyzed, other physical features were also scrutinized and assigned valuation. Africans who appeared more negroid were regarded as less attractive than those who possess some Europeanized features. Consider the description of these African heroes in a Bavaria 17th century abolitionist novel.

or the royal slave. And that you get from the book.

Milton Allimadi (37:26.8)
Oh, I thought you were still wearing your worry. I was like, wait, I didn't remember that in this book. Okay, you got me that. That was good. Good. That was good.

Adesoji Iginla (37:34.828)
And that is, and that you got from Manufacturing Hate published by the good comrade himself, Melty Nalimadi. Again, it goes to the kind of literature that you are, that's pushed on you determines your, determines your mindset. And so if we get people, you know, writing in their native languages,

Milton Allimadi (37:51.709)
Absolutely.

Adesoji Iginla (38:04.14)
with the right ideology, of course, because that has to be on the score with the right ideology, then we might just be on the path to true liberation. What do you say?

Milton Allimadi (38:08.511)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (38:16.508)
Absolutely. Listen, I write in English, correct? But I write in English coming equipped with a love of African languages, African culture, African tradition, African music, African food, African clothes, just a love of Africa and its manifestations.

Adesoji Iginla (38:21.582)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (38:30.574)
OK. OK.

Milton Allimadi (38:45.293)
in all aspects and attributes. You see?

I did not have the misfortune of growing up in a colonial period where Africa was attacked.

as the pathway toward quote unquote civilization. You see? And he's speaking

to a generation that had that experience, including himself. You see? So one might say that...

Milton Allimadi (39:22.491)
You know, maybe he spoke in a unique time in African history. So you see, for example, now with the technology space, you see young people, and I don't know what proportion, but you see young people embracing African history, African culture, wanting to know more, wanting to learn more, sharing more, and you see that

there has to be a demand for it because you see a lot of the content generating a lot of traffic. So I think when he wrote, obviously this technology did not exist. So the pessimism that was conveyed in that book was 100 % warranted. I would like to ask him, and of course he would have an answer.

Adesoji Iginla (40:14.83)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (40:22.435)
He would say, and this one nobody can tell me, it should be not up to young people to be educating themselves on these things. That is the role of the education system in each and every African country. So his argument is still valid, correct? The state, the government that is supposed to create the nurturing environment, China,

Adesoji Iginla (40:35.682)
the oldest.

Adesoji Iginla (40:45.762)
Correct, yep.

Milton Allimadi (40:52.151)
is where China is today because of Chinese state. Whether you like the system of government or not, that's irrelevant. It is the state that has elevated China to where it is today. Same thing with Japan, in the Japanese state. Same thing with the Koreas, whether you're discussing North Korea or South Korea. You see? Whichever one of the two you prefer.

It is a state that has elevated that to that level. Correct? But if you have African states aping European states, where are they going to lead Africa?

Adesoji Iginla (41:27.086)
Correct, yeah, correct.

Milton Allimadi (41:37.547)
Should it be up to young people to be going on YouTube or African Stream or I never knew TV to learn about African history, African culture?

Adesoji Iginla (41:50.957)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (41:53.036)
Think about that. So you're still right. If we had African systems...

and determine that this is the Africa we want to create. We would have come a long, long way since 1960s, but we have a mishmash of confusion. Leaders groping around with their eyes closed in darkness. And that's why you see a lot of young people are becoming very rebellious now.

Adesoji Iginla (42:29.666)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (42:29.932)
Absolutely. And it's either going to be two things. You have to give young people the knowledge that they know is out there, or the young people are going to take matters into their own hands. They just know two ways about it, you see. The population is growing, growing in all African countries. Africa is very young. The economies are stagnant. You're not producing.

You're not producing because you are in a dominated position in the global system. You know, even though you have the resources, have no, you're not determining how the resources are shared. You know, how much it's sold for, what percentage of the total value of that resource that you're going to keep and retain in Africa. You're not determining that, you see?

So either way, things will change. Things will change. It will change, and you want it in a relatively orderly way, or it will change in a chaotic way, and then evolve into some sort of stabilization. But we don't want another 60 years of wasted 60 years of so-called independence.

Adesoji Iginla (43:56.238)
So one aspect of this very epic book was he highlighted the language of the African theater. I read a part here that stood out to me. It was funny. He said, early one morning in 1976, a woman from Kamerutu village came to my house, and she went straight to the point. We hear you have a lot of education.

and that you write books. Why don't you and others of your kind give us some of that education in the village? We don't want the whole amount, just a little of it and a little of your time. There was a youth center in the village you went on and it was falling apart. It needed group effort to bring it back to life. Would I be willing to help? She asked me, which goes back to the question there you just highlighted.

that the role of the state and intellectuals alike and elders within the community to help guide the youth as to what is because yes maybe the the silly ones that we have currently who masquerade themselves as leaders are groping in the dark the last thing you want is the next generation also groping in the dark

Milton Allimadi (45:23.206)
That is sad.

Adesoji Iginla (45:23.586)
So what do you think, as a playwright yourself, what do you think the role of theatre is in the liberation of people?

Milton Allimadi (45:31.97)
or it's potentially very effective. And but that's why the precisely the reason why they shut down that effort that he became engaged in very quickly, you see. And it connects back to the language because they had the National Theater in Kenya, they had the theater in the university, the University of Nairobi or Kenyatta University.

but they did not have a people's theater. There were no theaters in the rural areas where you could stage well-scripted plays, performances. And that's what he did with his co-brother, Michele Mugo, the late Professor Michele Mugo, who just joined the Ancestors last year.

Adesoji Iginla (46:23.916)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (46:29.773)
So they go there, he accepts the challenge. They write a play, you the first one, I'll marry when I want. And they write it in the Kikuyu language so that they can perform with.

Adesoji Iginla (46:42.092)
want when I want.

Milton Allimadi (46:52.63)
It's ordinary people, not even professional actors, because they understand the language. And in fact, African people.

are all dramatists, really. Unless you're born in Europe, even then you will still get a little flavor of that from home, you know, if your parents are there.

Adesoji Iginla (47:17.77)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (47:20.482)
But if you had a rural experience in Africa, then you have been part of a play. If you sat outside and you listen to the elders tell those stories, and sometimes, you know, perform a little motion too while narrating the story. And then at some point as a youngster, you also start becoming involved in the dances and the singing and the performance. So they are all natural actors, automatic.

They've had rehearsals all their life. So now he comes and he weaves him and his comrade, Professor Muggo, a play that captures the independence struggle and how the achievement of independence was hijacked by the new black bourgeoisie, the African, the comprador.

Adesoji Iginla (47:50.914)
Hmm. Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (48:19.459)
And that the people understand because the people know their history. The people know that they themselves, because 1980 is not a very long time, 1970s rather, from where independence was only in the 1960s. So they themselves either participated in the liberation struggle in Kenya as part of the Kenya Land and Freedom Army, who were demonized by British. They either participated

or their relatives participated or their parents participated. You see? So that is a play that has resonance. That's a play that everybody wants to be a part of in terms of performing and acting. So of course it becomes very popular, very quickly.

Adesoji Iginla (49:03.566)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (49:09.162)
And now they're about to take it to the theaters in the city, in Nairobi. So now, you know, the welfare elite and the international community, because Kenya is a major center for international capital, they're going to see this play. So obviously this play is a threat to the managers of the international system.

Adesoji Iginla (49:13.294)
Exactly.

Milton Allimadi (49:37.825)
because that's what they are really, these governments, the presidency. At that time was President Mouy and his cabinet of ministers. All these are managers, they're well compensated managers, you see, in the global capitalist system. So they see this play as a direct challenge to the authority. They're being exposed, it's stripped naked. So it's not surprising that they suppress this play.

Adesoji Iginla (49:49.918)
Mmm. Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (50:04.238)
public.

Milton Allimadi (50:08.096)
So it shows you the power. Can you imagine if we a writer like Ngugi, like Professor Comrade, Professor Mugo in every one of these African countries taking place to the masses, you see?

Adesoji Iginla (50:09.464)
And then.

Adesoji Iginla (50:21.006)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (50:28.972)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (50:29.396)
that would also impact change in many African countries. So yeah, while it's very disappointing what they did to him, because as you know, ultimately he was arrested, detained without any trial or charges, know, in a modern society for writing a play and teaching people.

Adesoji Iginla (50:41.528)
present.

Adesoji Iginla (50:45.592)
Try out,

Adesoji Iginla (50:51.64)
Huh.

Milton Allimadi (50:52.244)
Yeah. So it's disappointing, but at same time it's hopeful because it shows you that there are things that we as Africans can do to intervene in the system. The system which is determined to keep our people ignorant. Because once we empower them with knowledge, then the rest is in their hands. They can make the changes that they need to make.

Adesoji Iginla (51:09.592)
Mm. Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (51:21.71)
So, yes, we were closing coming to the end of the program, but I mean, we still got a little while. But if you're finding value in this, do subscribe, join the Patreon, yeah, each one bring one. Yes. when speaking to what you've just broken down in terms of the fear of the managers, he said,

It was the British colonialism which destroyed that tradition, the tradition of the public play. The missionaries in their politicizing zeal saw many of our traditions as work of the devil. They had to be brought before the Bible could hold sway in the heart of the natives. The colonial administration also collaborated. Any gathering of the natives needed a license. Colonialism feared its own biological, its own biblical saint.

that where two or three gathered, God will hear their cry. Why should they allow God above or the God within the natives to hear the cry of the people? So it's calling out the hypocrisy of the entire establishment.

Milton Allimadi (52:41.672)
Right, listen. Now you're just reminding me of three things.

Adesoji Iginla (52:44.781)
You

Milton Allimadi (52:48.06)
and people, audience also do this research. Kim Bangu in Kuala Lumpur.

The guy who took the so-called European Christian religion, it's not even European, monotheism started in Kemet, ancient Egypt. And people do that research. The origins of monotheism over one God, that evolved in ancient Egypt, right? Well before the birth of Christ, meaning that origination story is itself African.

But let me come back to Kimbalgo. So he takes this religion that the Europeans claim they bring into Africa for first time, he Africanizes it in the sense that he weaves in African culture and traditions. And it becomes so popular, it becomes a national movement for liberation. So what do they do? They try him and lock him up, you know, even condemn him to death. I don't think he was killed, he was just, you know, detained.

Adesoji Iginla (53:27.63)
I don't need to it.

Adesoji Iginla (53:41.998)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (53:56.658)
you know, died in captivity. Kimpavita, same thing in ancient Congo, Portuguese colony. you know Congo, you know, Portugal has, you know, the longest colonialism in Africa, way before Berlin conference, Portugal already been in Africa for centuries, you know. And he says, and she says,

Adesoji Iginla (53:57.58)
Mm-mm.

Adesoji Iginla (54:13.686)
It's yeah.

Milton Allimadi (54:27.57)
Jesus and therefore God were black and for that she is burnt on the stage. So you have this other part but then you have this other part where and this is a story that a Ugandan comrade told me. I think I've told you this in the past. In his village

Adesoji Iginla (54:44.428)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (54:54.876)
Catholicism was big in his village. And he knew this old man, you know, he was the village wise elder, right? You know, given that respect because he is a fountain of a lot of their history and tradition. And he used to go to church every Sunday. And it was in Latin, right?

Adesoji Iginla (55:08.782)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (55:23.789)
And then, you know, they had an Africanization movement at one point. So they started praying in the local Lua language.

Adesoji Iginla (55:36.142)
You

Milton Allimadi (55:37.487)
The old man refused to go to church. He says, what? This is it? He said, now everybody can understand what's being said. It sounded much more spiritually connected and mysterious to him when he was enlightened. But now it's in his own African language, no.

This cannot be close to God, you see? So you see what the European has managed to do, right?

So I think that just explains to you the challenges that we face.

Adesoji Iginla (56:21.867)
You

Milton Allimadi (56:24.347)
It reminds you of one of Usman Sambena's movie. I forget whether it's Guelwa, think it's Guelwa, where the character goes to France for a few weeks and then comes back and he's forgotten all the African languages like Wolof. He's only speaking the little French he knows and he wants everybody in the village to speak to him in French.

Adesoji Iginla (56:27.79)
No.

Adesoji Iginla (56:40.014)
You

Adesoji Iginla (56:54.871)
You

Milton Allimadi (56:55.814)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (56:58.872)
Yeah, there's a part here I want us to talk on before we wind up. it's, I made something in my notes. Let me see. Yeah. He said, in the 18th and 19th century, Europe stole our treasures from Africa to decorate their houses and museums. In the 20th century, we can.

add on the 21st century. Europe is stealing the treasures of the mind to enrich their languages and cultures. Africa needs back its economy, its politics, its culture, its languages, and above all, its patriotic writers.

Milton Allimadi (57:50.98)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (57:53.09)
What's your take?

Milton Allimadi (57:56.954)
I think Africa.

Milton Allimadi (58:00.844)
needs true independence.

Adesoji Iginla (58:06.126)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (58:06.423)
And of course.

We can only have independence if we have writers that are able to show the African youth why they actually are not yet independent.

And for that to happen, they need to understand.

Adesoji Iginla (58:26.03)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (58:32.002)
some level of political economy, really.

you know. And right now, I'm afraid, there not enough. I think in the 1960s, we had more people teaching the youth political economy. You see?

Adesoji Iginla (58:48.237)
out

Milton Allimadi (58:50.599)
Now, with the global media platform, social media, we can do that. So that's what the African patriotic writers should be engaged in doing, using this media to show them that there's direct connection between your condition of impoverishment and your parents in the rural area.

Adesoji Iginla (58:51.275)
or DK.

Adesoji Iginla (59:04.302)
political economy.

Milton Allimadi (59:16.579)
and your country's relationship with the global economic system.

Adesoji Iginla (59:22.797)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (59:22.87)
Why are your parents being kicked off the land that they've tilled for generations and the land is being given to some so-called foreign investor?

and you now have no options, your parents are elderly, weak, dying off, you have some energy, so you're going to try to cross the Mediterranean. Think about that, because obviously you want to stay alive and you think if you make it to Europe, you're going to get any job, so long as you're being paid in euros, right? It's better than dying on the streets. But we need to teach them that you should not accept that.

Adesoji Iginla (59:45.036)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:00:07.498)
You should make it impossible for your own government to kick your parents off the land and give it to some so-called investor. There's nothing to invest in unless they want to give your parents compensation. And your parents would take the money, but not give up all the land. They would keep some for themselves. So they can continue sustaining themselves. But you see,

under the global system we have, they want your parents not to have any land at all so that you are forced to sell your labor to this so-called investor. So colonialism is just being recycled, you see? So that's what we need to teach our people, to become much more militant and not accepting of neo-colonialism.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:59.395)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:06.238)
through the current crop of African leaders.

So Ngugi and his generation did their part and we were still actively writing a lot. We should continue that.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:11.626)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:21.064)
same approach.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:21.964)
Yes, same approach, same approach. And that is Ungugi's Decolonizing the Mind. He also wrote lots of books, actually. That's just one of them. Others would be Homecoming, Bunch of Essays, Moving the Center.

Secure the bass.

Another... something thrown anew?

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:59.618)
writers in politics, in the name of the mother.

from the barrel of a pen and his most recent works, The Language of Languages.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:08.02)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:14.663)
Yes, sir.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:16.448)
And all of this are essays of thought. his mind is still as sharp as, know. So I enjoy people to explore his works. But again, the one we looked at today is neocolonialism, last stage. said neocolonialism, mind by Ngugiwa Fiongo. comrade, again, I can't.

stress enough appreciation for bringing your thoughts to bear.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:48.42)
My pleasure.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:52.87)
My pleasure, son.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:57.058)
So until next week when we come back with our news review, it's from the comrade.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:57.332)
to continue.

Milton Allimadi (01:03:07.666)
I'll do the continua. See you next week.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:11.788)
See you next week and have a week ahead.