EP 8 Decolonization, Confliict and Congo's Wealth I African News Review 🌍

In this conversation, Adesoji Iginla and Milton Allimadi delve into the ongoing crisis in the Democratic Republic of Congo, exploring its historical roots, current dynamics, and the involvement of neighboring countries like Rwanda and Uganda. 

The discussion also touches on the broader themes of decolonization in Africa, the importance of cultural identity, and the implications of modern slavery as exemplified by the case of Linda Mugabe. 

The speakers emphasize the need for African agency and the importance of understanding the historical context to navigate contemporary challenges.

Takeaways

*The Congo crisis is a complex issue with deep historical roots.
*Rwanda and Uganda's involvement in Congo is driven by resource interests.
*The M23 group is seen as a proxy for Rwandan and Ugandan interests.
*Decolonization efforts in Uganda reflect a broader movement across Africa.
*Cultural identity plays a crucial role in the decolonization process.
*The U.S. has strategic interests in Congo's mineral wealth.
*Modern slavery remains a pressing issue, even among diplomats.
*Symbolism in naming and cultural representation is vital for African nations.
*The need for a strong national army in Congo is critical for sovereignty.
*African agency is essential in addressing historical and contemporary challenges.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Congo Crisis
01:01 Historical Context of Congo's Conflicts
08:25 Current Situation and Regional Implications
18:51 US Involvement and Strategic Interests
26:32 The Future of Congo's Resources and Global Dynamics
30:25 Military Cooperation and Strategic Alliances
34:05 Decolonizing Uganda: A Cultural Shift
40:21 The Role of Intellectuals in African Identity
46:48 Exploitation and Diplomatic Immunity: A Case Study

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:06.563)
Greetings, greetings, and welcome to another episode of African News Review. The headline for today is Decolonization Conflict and Congo's Wealth. I am your host, as usual, Adesuji Iginla, and with me is none other than broadcaster, journalist, a man of many talents, and our regular guest, Comrade Milton Alibadi. How are you, sir?

Milton Allimadi (00:34.529)
Karibu asante as always. Thank you, my friend.

Adesoji Iginla (00:37.619)
Yes. welcome to both first and foremost, how are you this week? are you this week?

Milton Allimadi (00:43.437)
It's been a good week. mean, the weather has been very kind on the East Coast the last week or so. And we hope it continues that way, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (00:47.799)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (00:53.721)
When you say kind, you mean kind as in warm or kind as in too cold?

Milton Allimadi (00:59.285)
is it warm, anything from, you know, when it's Fahrenheit, anything from 40 to 50, when winter is not yet over is good, you know, you have to take that and celebrate.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04.227)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09.688)
Yeah, speaking of winter and celebration, we'll go for our next for our first story of the day. We'll go to the Congo and the story comes from Al Jazeera and it's titled People Need a Break, something we've often emphasized here with regards to the Congo crisis. And

It reads, people need a break. DRC Congo conflict reignites dark memories of Congo's wars. Is a deadly past replaying for Congo as M23 fighters, I won't use that term, march on Kinshasa amid presence of Rwanda and Ugandan troops. And the story is filed in by Shola Lawal.

In parts of Democratic Republic of Congo, M23 rebels are gearing up for war or fleeing to safety amidst the advance of M23 rebels who captured the key eastern city of Goma and Bukavu in recent weeks, leaving devastation in their wake. For those who are not familiar with what we're talking about, could you just give them a recap of what they mean by a replay of the war that happened?

in the past are brought in multiple places.

Milton Allimadi (02:35.914)
So in 1996, 1997, Congo, was then Zaire under Mobutu, the dictator Mobutu, the assassin of Patrice Lumumba, the CIA agent. know Mobutu was a CIA agent by 1959, by 1959 officially, even before Congo's independence. They had already recruited him.

Adesoji Iginla (02:42.243)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (02:57.817)
whoa, okay.

Milton Allimadi (03:06.033)
when he had traveled to Belgium, to Brussels. So they installed Mobutu, and of course he ran the country down, but he was serving Western interests, so he was able to be in power. Every time the Congolese tried to him, the West would intervene. They would send Moroccan troops,

Adesoji Iginla (03:10.434)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (03:32.391)
Air dropped by the American planes and American weapons. So that's how it was sustained. So Mabutu was detested by Africans, by Pan-Africans. So when finally the country was invaded from Rwanda and Uganda in 96, 97, nobody shed any tears for Mabutu. And Laurent Kabila, who actually had been, it's very interesting, his resistance actually

goes way to the 60s. Laurent Cabrilla was the person whose gorilla outfit Che Guevara went to train in the 1960s. So he was an authentic resistance leader and a supporter of Partizan from the 1960s, you see. So he was installed as the new ruler of the Congo. then, correct.

Adesoji Iginla (04:04.675)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (04:11.829)
GivGurl,

Adesoji Iginla (04:28.889)
That was in 97.

Milton Allimadi (04:32.035)
When he saw that Uganda and Rwanda wanted to impose the hegemony, because particularly interest in resources, of course, that's what they were interested. It wasn't like they had any major ideological difference with Mobutu. After all, both of them, General Museven and General Kagame, are also dictators, correct? So.

Adesoji Iginla (04:50.521)
below.

Adesoji Iginla (04:58.712)
Yep.

Milton Allimadi (05:00.544)
The intervention primarily was for the resources of the Congo. And when they started actualizing that, started to steal resources and started to literally be more powerful than Loran Kabila, which of course they were because they provided the army to put him in power. He didn't like that. So he decided to exercise the powers that a president ordinarily has.

Adesoji Iginla (05:04.771)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (05:20.857)
Of course, of course.

Milton Allimadi (05:29.879)
and ordered them to leave. And they said, are you out of your mind? We put you in power and you don't have an army. We are your army. So they refused to leave. Instead, they tried to officially get rid of him, overthrow him. And that's when he called for assistance from a number of African countries, the principal ones that really

Adesoji Iginla (05:38.265)
and we can take

You

Adesoji Iginla (05:47.265)
undermine his

Milton Allimadi (05:58.711)
help him to defeat that second invasion by Rwanda and Uganda were the armies of Zimbabwe and Angola. So they managed to push back the second invasion and defeat the second invasion. But since that time, the eastern part of the Congo has been pretty much a nomad zone.

Part of it controlled by Rwanda and part of it controlled by Uganda. And he has tried to regain control of that region by bringing in the intervention forces from South Africa, from Tanzania, from Malawi, I believe, from Burundi.

Adesoji Iginla (06:44.387)
South African.

Adesoji Iginla (06:57.109)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (06:57.121)
So that's been the status quo since then with the ebbs and flows. Rwanda and Uganda have both financed, there were groups before the one that is now called M23, and currently it's M23. And there's now been a resurgence of both Rwanda and Uganda wanting to stamp their footprints in Eastern Congo.

which is very resource mineral rich. The latest is what we're seeing unfolding with Rwanda, AKA M23, seizing the cities of Goma and Bukavu. And of course, it's been covered, well covered in terms of the violence that they've committed. Estimated 7,000 civilians have been killed. The reports of the

Adesoji Iginla (07:43.425)
Book. Yep.

Milton Allimadi (07:56.308)
horrific rapes of women and even children. Clearly, Congo has not been able to exercise control over the Eastern region for a very long time now, even before the current president, Tisha Kedi. Even with Kabila's son, Joseph Kabila, who succeeded his father, he was not able to exercise control in Eastern Congo and had the very contentious type of relationship.

with Rwanda and Uganda that the current president also has with Rwanda and Uganda. More so with Rwanda for the time being. So that's the backdrop.

Adesoji Iginla (08:35.577)
Okay.

So I continue. So it goes on, which is what you've expressed here. The rebel group which the United Nations says is backed by Nibiru Rwanda is also closing on Wali Kali, a major mining hub which Kinshasa offers over 5 million

Milton Allimadi (08:55.828)
Right, so I would have a suggestion for Al Jazeera and for all those that write, because obviously words are very critical. If I'm writing an article like this, I would not call them a rebel group, because in some countries you have genuine, authentic rebellions that are sometimes warranted and even justified, you see, when there's a domestic dispute, right? But when you have a war,

Adesoji Iginla (09:05.561)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (09:19.373)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (09:22.893)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (09:24.967)
of aggression from neighboring states and you refer to rebels, then it disguises and it distorts the conflict and misinforms the reader. So I would use proxy and they've never used the term proxy, which would be much more accurate actually, because the M2DT is a proxy for both Rwanda and for Uganda as well. But go ahead.

Adesoji Iginla (09:47.383)
and Uganda. Yeah. Okay. So

And so while the proxy matches in on North and South Kivu, Ugandan troops have intensified deployment across their border with the DRC in Nturi province, only a few hours away from the rebel-held areas. The Ugandan army says it is battling the Allied Democratic Forces, ADF, and the Cooperative for the Development of Congo, Kudeko, two of the several dozen armed groups operating in the DRC.

A recent flare-up of Kodeko's attacks on civilians in February saw at least 51 people killed, prompting Uganda to send additional soldiers to boost its 5,000-strong deployment inside the DRC. So, go on.

Milton Allimadi (10:42.394)
You know, that's all Ugandan propaganda. So Congo is so weak that Uganda has this called the Allied Democratic Front, which many times I've tweeted, I don't believe it's independent of Uganda. I believe this is a group that Museven himself sustains, just like he sustained Joseph Kony and the Lord's Resistance Army.

Adesoji Iginla (10:51.929)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (11:11.587)
Tommy, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (11:11.841)
in the northern part of Uganda to give him the umbrella to intervene militarily Congo and continue stealing resources because Moseve does not care about peace and stability. You cannot restore peace and stability in a neighboring country when you don't have it in your own country, which is Uganda. His interest is resources to continue plundering. And he's saying if Kagame is stealing, how can I not be allowed to steal as well? So

Adesoji Iginla (11:29.783)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (11:40.886)
when they talk about a flare up of conflict by this other group, which I'd never even heard of before, that is also in my view, a Ugandan creation. So what Uganda is trying to do is to still play ball with Shekere, President Shekere, say, let's work together, we'll help you restore peace in this part. When he's in fact the one instigating

Adesoji Iginla (11:48.888)
you

Adesoji Iginla (12:08.185)
the same time, undermining.

Milton Allimadi (12:10.872)
instigating the conflict, not at a maximum level like the way Kagame is doing, but at a minimal level that allows him to deploy some. But if things deteriorate for the Congo and M23 is not contained or defeated and expands and it looks like the government itself in the Congo, in Kinshasa, is under jeopardy, then Museveni will become more aggressive.

Adesoji Iginla (12:25.454)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (12:29.497)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (12:38.751)
and start seizing territory just like the way Kagame is doing. But, Sir, when you have studied him for such a long time, now I can think his thoughts before he thinks them. He has become so predictable.

Adesoji Iginla (12:50.233)
And now that it's grown slower as well, you're able to breath. Okay, I'll go on. So for political observers, the growing presence of both Rwanda and Ugandan soldiers in the DRC is an eerie replay of a painful past, one they fear could again lead to a bigger regional war if not contained. We are indeed seeing a replica of the Second Congo War, which you explained earlier.

Milton Allimadi (12:57.354)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (13:18.105)
With the same actors but in a slightly different configuration, analyst Paul Nataluya of the African Centre for Strategic Studies told Al Jazeera, referring to the leading roles both countries played in what is now referred to as the 1998 Great African War, when Rwanda and Ugandan troops invaded the DRC.

Several African countries have also followed suit, backing either the DRC or the Rwandan-led side, as many as a dozen of local militias on either end. The result was a humanitarian crisis that saw an estimated 5 million deaths. The DRC looted on mineral resources like gold and the emergence of dozens of armed groups, including the M23. At the time,

Thousands across the globe protested against the atrocities in the DRC calling for an end to the looting and the killing. Today illegal mining and smuggling from the DRC mines which provided 70 % off the global supply of coal and cobalt that powers electronics have likely continued. As have debts and displacement due to armed group activity. You want to say a word?

Milton Allimadi (14:33.333)
Yeah, I mean, you've outlined how things are deteriorating. M23, aka Rwanda, they've not been able to sustain. the Army of Congo, it's clear that they lack commanders. If they had commanders, they would be able to repulse this integration and drive them back, in fact, into both Rwanda and into Uganda.

Adesoji Iginla (14:38.093)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (15:00.039)
but they don't have commanders. You have men on the ground. Men will not fight unless they have commanders that can give them proper battle execution plans and also inspire them. People fight based on the quality of the commanders that they have. If they had the kind of commanders who commanded the, let me see that.

Adesoji Iginla (15:08.963)
direction.

Adesoji Iginla (15:13.464)
Mm, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (15:19.673)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (15:28.892)
the forces in Tigray, for example, right?

Adesoji Iginla (15:33.165)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (15:34.748)
they were able to push back the Ethiopian slash Eritrean assault on that region because they've always had brilliant commanders. They were managed to build a new force and because of the quality of the commanders, they were able to push the fight back. So that conflict, which

Adesoji Iginla (15:39.104)
Vian Ame.

Milton Allimadi (16:00.656)
Fortunately, it has now subsidized. still there, but not at the level that we saw like two years ago. The tide shifted because of the quality of the commanders. It's clear to me that Congo's army does not have the quality of commanders. So unless they can get commanders from South Africa, from Zimbabwe, from Angola, I don't see how they can shift the tide. And only

Adesoji Iginla (16:05.591)
Yeah, yes you go, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (16:24.089)
Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (16:29.889)
Angola, Zimbabwe, as I said, in South Africa, have the kind of armed force that would be able to contain both Rwanda and Uganda, because that's what happened in the 19, beginning from 1998 up to 2003, 2004. So that's the kind of intervention that Congo would need. It's evident to me that doing it with its own armed forces, the way things have been going the last several weeks,

Adesoji Iginla (16:48.194)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (16:59.735)
it's very clear that on their own they're not able to shift the tide.

Adesoji Iginla (17:04.569)
And yeah.

Milton Allimadi (17:06.068)
And for strategic reasons, Angola could actually have an incentive because Congo now is involved with Angola in the Lobito corridor, you see? So unless they've calculated that the Lobito really relies on the other parts of Congo, including the Katanga region. And so...

Adesoji Iginla (17:17.143)
Yep, yep, yep.

Milton Allimadi (17:33.949)
If that region was threatened, then perhaps it would be worth us escalating our support of the Congo or becoming fully involved. But if only the East is being threatened and would not disrupt Lopito, I think Angola might say, well, you know, let them find other ways of dealing with that.

Adesoji Iginla (17:55.737)
Well, you recounted the African War, the genesis that started in 1996, 97. And there's a book out there titled The African War by Gerard Brunier. It's a, yeah, so, oh yeah, yeah. I got.

Milton Allimadi (18:12.182)
Yes, I believe I have that book. I haven't read it, but I do. have it, actually. I got it from this ram.

Milton Allimadi (18:20.749)
Our favorite store.

Adesoji Iginla (18:22.261)
Yeah, full restore. I got this from the strand as well when I came to your side. So yeah, this book covers all of what the Comrade said. And also there's another book by, what's the gentleman's name? Howard French, The Continent for Retaking. Yeah, that is another brilliant book that covers the rise of Kabila, his fall.

Milton Allimadi (18:26.443)
No, I'm kidding.

Adesoji Iginla (18:48.825)
the fall of Mobutu, the rise of Kabila and his subsequent fall. And then brings all the players into the picture.

Milton Allimadi (18:55.935)
Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah, I know Howard. He was one of the few New York Times correspondents whom I respected and interacted with. I've been on a panel discussion with him at Columbia University. So yes, I respect Howard.

Adesoji Iginla (19:10.585)
Yeah, so yeah, Howard French's book, the continent for retaking, Africa, continent for retaking, it's title of the book. speaking of retaking, we go to our next story, which comes from...

Your friends? The BBC? The ones that refused? So again, he's talking about Congo. And he goes along the line, is Trump mauling a mineral deal with conflict-hit DRC, DRC Congo? And the story is, the story reads, the Democratic Republic of Congo appears to be turning to the US.

Milton Allimadi (19:33.043)
talking.

Adesoji Iginla (19:56.253)
its latest effort to find an ally in its fight against advancing M23 rebels, still have not taken heed. Recognizing that the White House of President Trump is interested in transactional relationships and seeing the proposed Ukraine-US mineral deal, the resource-rich DRC is hoping to strike its own agreement with Washington. It has also been reported that soon

Trump is soon to appoint the father-in-law of his daughter Tiffany to a key role in the region. Congolese government spokesman Patrick Mouyaya confirmed to the BBC Newsday program that his country wanted to the US on board and supply it with some critical minerals. Your initial thought with this plan? Because when I was reading the story, I was like, we've been here before. What is going on here?

Milton Allimadi (20:51.912)
Yeah.

Well, here's the sad thing about it. We've already discussed how weak the Congolese military is, lack of commanders. So this is obviously an act of desperation, hoping that the military superiority of Rwanda and Uganda can be checked with a U.S. interest. And the incentives that Congo is offering

Adesoji Iginla (20:57.721)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (21:03.598)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (21:24.775)
the minerals that the Congo possesses, which it has plenty of. And here's the irony. As Patrice Lumumba was standing there facing the fighting squad, you know he refused to be blindfolded because he wanted to look at his killers, right?

Adesoji Iginla (21:24.889)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (21:41.759)
Yeah, It's the eye. That's what he said. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (21:46.056)
So can you imagine that Patrice Lumumba would think that decades after his assassination, right, we are talking what, we're talking 54 years, right?

Adesoji Iginla (21:58.635)
Hmm. Hmm. I see where you're going with this. I see.

Adesoji Iginla (22:05.015)
Yes, yes.

Milton Allimadi (22:06.339)
after his assassination. Right?

Adesoji Iginla (22:09.816)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (22:11.591)
talking, you know, 64 years, 64, after his assassination, that one day the country that collaborated in the overthrow of his government and his assassination would one day be the same country upon which Congo would call upon for protection. Just think about the irony.

Adesoji Iginla (22:14.745)
Yes, 64, 64. Yeah, 61.

Adesoji Iginla (22:38.839)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (22:39.266)
You know, you cannot even write this script up in Hollywood, you know, but that's what it is. You know, the country that helped take the life of Patrice Lumumba is now the country that is being called upon to assist in stanching this aggression, war of aggression from Rwanda and Uganda. The irony. But in the absence

Adesoji Iginla (23:00.729)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (23:08.855)
of the kind of support that Laurent Kabila got from Angola and Zimbabwe when the second invasion of the Congo had occurred from Rwanda and Uganda, he may think that that is the only option that he now has. And it has a chance of succeeding. I'm not saying that it will, but it has the chance of getting U.S. interest. Because as you know,

The U.S. president has made it clear that if something is in it for the United States, then he might be interested. They're trying to get Ukraine to sign this deal. Initially, it was for $500 million, or is it billion, $500 billion worth of resources, right?

And now it's a joint fund that the U.S. would have control over, but Ukraine would also have interest in. So there's this configuration of arrangements. So as the Congo is listening to that and they're seeing how interested this U.S. president was in such a project, obviously some people decided to get together in the Congo and draw up a similar proposal. And that is what the

Adesoji Iginla (24:28.664)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (24:36.994)
pitching to the U.S. now. And if it has less strings attached than what Ukraine seems to be offering, then there's a possibility the U.S. might take an interest. And the person that they mention, the father-in-law to President Trump's daughter, is a business person involved in real estate, involved in some businesses in some African countries as well.

And if he goes and evaluates and he likes the meeting with the people in the Congo, he might come back and tell Trump, yeah, let's go ahead with this proposal. But that would just be a stopgap measure. At the end of the day, Congo needs a national army that can protect the sovereignty and the citizens of the Congo.

Adesoji Iginla (25:15.609)
Okay, good.

Adesoji Iginla (25:29.217)
Okay, so you invoked the name of Patrice Lumumba in the beginning and I want to also now tie that to the fact that if we don't know what the American interest would look like or how to shore up said interest would look like, would you count it as the idea of US troops being based in Congo?

Milton Allimadi (25:52.531)
No, I don't think they would need a substantive US force.

Adesoji Iginla (25:56.921)
troops on the ground.

Milton Allimadi (26:02.213)
U.S. resources could make a vast difference. If Trump gets on board, it means Musk is on board as well. So they would have all the satellite images, which they have already, by the way, right now anyway. But now they would be inclined to use it, because now you're protecting your own interests. So on the intelligence level alone, on the weapons sophisticated levels alone,

Adesoji Iginla (26:13.977)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (26:18.579)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Milton Allimadi (26:31.88)
that would be no match for Rwanda and Uganda. And Rwanda and Uganda, who are actually fed by the U.S. and by Europe, would not dare to be on the opposite side of the United States. So as soon as the U.S. commits and their interests, that's the end of this conflict.

Adesoji Iginla (26:38.345)
by the US.

Adesoji Iginla (26:52.991)
Okay, so, but there's a side we're not looking at and I'll continue with the story, you will see where I'm going with that. So why is there a talk of a deal? You've explained that with regards to the interest of the stuff going on in Ukraine, which forms the idea of, you know, bringing in the United States. Now, what will it be in it for the US?

The DRC is estimated to have 24 trillion Watt, that's 19 trillion pounds of untapped resources, including cobalt, gold, and copper. The current is the I.

Milton Allimadi (27:31.167)
And that's probably an underestimate because that survey was done a long time ago. That survey was done a long time ago. And since then, more resources have been now. So I read that statistic, I've been reading that statistic for a very long time. It may actually be doubled what is being said there. I would be not surprised if it's even 50 trillion to 100 trillion.

Adesoji Iginla (27:36.807)
Yeah. Yeah. they.

discovered.

Adesoji Iginla (27:45.524)
Hahaha

Adesoji Iginla (27:49.955)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (27:53.849)
Wow. The country is currently the world's largest supplier of cobalt, which has defense and aerospace applications as well as essentials for batteries in electric vehicles. But most of this goes to China. It also has significant lithium, tantalum, and uranium deposits, which have military uses. I mean, we know the uranium was used in the two bombs that was dropped on Japan, Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Milton Allimadi (28:23.018)
correct.

Adesoji Iginla (28:23.117)
Though the US is investing in a huge infrastructure project, the Lobito Corridor, designed to transport goods out of Central Africa to a port in Angola, its companies are not involved in mining in the US. So with that in mind, so you've got two blind sides for that potential deal. One is China, and two is

the corridor, the railway that is already proposed. Now, would the railway be sufficient enough for the United States to come in? Or would it be a case of extending our interest beyond the railway, then vis-a-vis coming in contact with China? Because there is no way you cannot do that. Or that would not happen, rather.

Milton Allimadi (29:14.985)
no, I mean a number of things. The railway, Trump is not interested in that as much. That's, you know, development project. He would be more interested in the quid pro quo. The quid pro quo is the resources, the cobalt, the coal town, and those are in eastern Congo. And in order to get to those resources in eastern Congo, you have to push out Rwanda.

Adesoji Iginla (29:17.593)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (29:32.504)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (29:44.282)
and push out Uganda. And that is what they're pitching to Trump. So there's sort of different projects. The Lobito one, I think the only question about that was would the US continue funding that one? And I think so far, there's been no disruption or decision to stop funding that project. So this one is sort of like a new pitch. And in terms of China being a potential obstacle, I don't see that happening because

Adesoji Iginla (29:46.147)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (30:13.091)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (30:13.822)
I think some of these deals that Congo already has with China, they would have to restructure those deals. Because if it comes to a question of restructuring a deal or not being able to get the help that we need from the US to stay in power, then of course they could make it very uncountable.

Adesoji Iginla (30:24.398)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (30:43.089)
because after all the minerals are not in China, they're in Congo, you see? So in order for you to tap into those resources, the Congolese government, for number one, has to be in place, has to be in power, number one. Number two, it has to be reasonably happy to continue working with you. So I think, you know, I don't see China being able to disrupt Congo's desire to conclude some sort of a deal with the United States as well. Congo would say,

Adesoji Iginla (30:47.768)
Ha

Adesoji Iginla (30:51.587)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (30:57.081)
True.

Milton Allimadi (31:13.2)
There's enough for everybody here, but we're not going to allow you to block a deal that might allow us to remain in power.

Adesoji Iginla (31:22.233)
Okay, okay. So I'll take one final part and where is it? Yes. The question is, which is what you've just alluded to, is how could the DRC benefit? One key area would be in strengthening military cooperation as the letter to Rubio puts it. This will involve training and equipping soldiers to protect military supply routes, giving the US access to military bases to protect, which is

the part that he spoke about earlier and replacing ineffective UMP skipping operations with direct US DRC security cooperation.

Milton Allimadi (31:58.542)
Correct.

Milton Allimadi (32:02.139)
Correct. Absolutely. That can be done where the U.S. basically would provide the logistical support. They would man and control the sophisticated weapons that they would put. There's no way if you have even a presence of like 25 or 50 U.S. personnel on the ground that Rwanda and Uganda would drop artillery shells in that region. There's no way at all.

It won't happen, you see? And then, know, countries like Angola and Zimbabwe might be much more willing to even provide manpower now, because they know that they have, you know, the backing of a country that can now. And, you know, even salaries alone for these soldiers put a strain on some of these governments. So if Congo has a deal,

Adesoji Iginla (32:48.099)
Cover.

Adesoji Iginla (32:58.55)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (33:00.494)
The US is even covering the logistics and, you know, paying for the forces and they're being compensated with the minerals. There's no shortage of ideas of how Congo can really construct a deal. But as I said, that would only be short run. At the end of the day, they need to have an efficient professional army.

Adesoji Iginla (33:15.512)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (33:22.493)
Mm-hmm. Speaking of, Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (33:24.688)
If they cannot come up with a deal, then I would say they really lack imagination and manpower. There's enough there for them to be able to come up with a deal because normally it would be like, oh, United States doesn't want to get involved in any more conflict, not the least a conflict in on the African continent, deploying US troops on the ground. But this is a bit different.

Adesoji Iginla (33:47.001)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (33:52.577)
Somalia was different. Somalia, you went to try and get out the general ID. So you went with war intentions. And I did foot back and they shot down the helicopter. You see? Now you're coming to secure peace. And I don't see any circumstance under which Rwanda or Uganda can go after US personnel. Because they're so dependent on the West for their survival.

Adesoji Iginla (34:03.257)
Yeah, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (34:17.593)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (34:23.103)
So to take a hostile position against the people that feed you and sustain you.

Adesoji Iginla (34:27.555)
you

Milton Allimadi (34:30.069)
You know, I don't see that happening.

Adesoji Iginla (34:32.823)
That is almost like a death wish.

Milton Allimadi (34:33.993)
Right. But that does not mean that they'll be able to come up with a deal. Because as you know, the U.S. president is also very unpredictable.

Adesoji Iginla (34:42.861)
Very much so, very much so. It depends on what time of day it is. And speaking of unpredictability, we'll go to east of Congo. We'll go to a lovely country, consider one of the greenest in Africa. And I'm speaking to the country of Uganda. And appears that they want to make a break from their colonial past.

The story comes from The Guardian. says campaigners celebrate court ruling to decolonize Kampala. After a five-year campaign, landmarks and streets honoring British colonists will be renamed to reflect Ugandan culture. Your initial take.

Milton Allimadi (35:29.652)
I mean, this is something that I've been involved in for a very long time. Not this particular project, but around the time that this same project was being launched, I was actually, you know, I hope that they might have even been inspired by what I was doing. I had launched petitions for Lake Victoria to be given an indigenous African or Ugandan name.

Adesoji Iginla (35:34.189)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (35:39.449)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (35:51.993)
Milton Allimadi (35:58.003)
I launched another campaign saying Victoria Falls should also be given an indigenous afternoon.

Adesoji Iginla (36:03.979)
It's got an indigenous name. It's got an indigenous name. It's just that... Yeah, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (36:07.791)
It's not being applied. It's not being used. So in the tourist brochures that they put to invite people to come, they're not using the African names, you see? So yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm happy with this, that it's gone on and that it's now actually being implemented in Uganda. And I will hope that many other African countries do something similar to that.

Adesoji Iginla (36:14.296)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (36:19.312)
Mm. Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (36:29.674)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (36:36.631)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (36:37.191)
Why should we have a city called Pretoria in South Africa? Why should we have a city called Johannesburg in South Africa? For Elizabeth, you know? So yeah, we need to revisit all these things. I'm a big proponent of these kind of campaigns.

Adesoji Iginla (36:43.661)
Hmm?

Adesoji Iginla (36:47.615)
O Pote Elizabeth, O Pote Elizabeth.

Adesoji Iginla (36:59.193)
Okay I would read a bit and it goes on. It says and the story is filed in by Samuel Okiro in Kampala and it says campaigner have welcomed a court ruling to remove British colonial monuments from Ugandan's capital Kampala and to rename streets the Hono crooks and historical figureheads in last week's High Court ruling.

Justice Musa Sikena directed the city authorities to remove the name of British figures from streets, monuments, and other landmarks. This included Major General Henry Edward Covell, an early commissioner of the Ugandan Protectorate, and Frederick Lugard, a prominent colonial official in Africa with a reputation for cruelty. He was actually... Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (37:53.784)
racism. They left that out. Cruelty and racism.

Adesoji Iginla (37:58.809)
He was actually involved with Nigeria as well. He did the amalgamation of the North and South. So new names will be found for roads and parks that reflect Uganda's culture after the ruling, which was a combination of a five-year campaign. In 2020, more than 5,000, 5,000, 8, 2020, that's almost like five years ago.

Milton Allimadi (38:01.796)
Of course, he was the governor.

Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (38:23.62)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (38:24.601)
5,800 people signed a petition asking MPs to decolonize and rename dozens of statues and streets honoring colonialists and last year John Septuart, a human rights activist filed a lawsuit in Kampala claiming the roads named by the British during violated Ugandan's right to dignity and freedom from cruel treatment. So you think people who have

the great Machere Ray University, will wait this long to decolonize the streets of Kampala. Why do you think that was the case?

Milton Allimadi (39:02.734)
Right. think as prominent African intellectuals have reminded us, one of the hardest challenges for Africans to really be comfortable with who they are, you know, know, many Africans still are not

Adesoji Iginla (39:14.425)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (39:33.29)
spiritually, psychologically, and fully willing to embrace their African, Africaness, right, or Africanity. And they want some sort of ties, you know, even symbolic ties to imperialism and empire and European-ness, you know, they're not fully convinced.

Adesoji Iginla (39:43.193)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (39:59.288)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (40:02.209)
that things that are African could actually be better, you see? And that's just my assessment because it shows a lack of understanding of history because culture and civilizations were being constructed in Africa before European countries existed, you see? So if more knew that, they would not hesitate. They would not wait 60 plus years.

Adesoji Iginla (40:06.434)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (40:29.528)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (40:30.27)
after independence to be doing things that should have been done. You know, the week after independence, you see? So that's my own evaluation. know, Sankara understood the importance of the symbolism. So one of the first things he did when he came to power, we are no longer upper Volta. We are Burkina Faso. It connects to us.

Adesoji Iginla (40:34.209)
Mmm. Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (40:57.62)
It relates to us. It has meaning for us. A definite meaning in that case, land of the righteous people, the upright people, you see? You know, so that people on a daily basis are taking pride in themselves when they wake up. I'm a Bukinabe, you see? Symbolism is very important.

Adesoji Iginla (41:05.709)
Yeah, the opera people, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (41:19.575)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (41:20.8)
Don't let anybody underestimate, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (41:24.749)
So do you think this campaign would spread across Africa or is going to be an isolated event?

Milton Allimadi (41:32.65)
I hope so. I think there are enough young people now across the African continent who know how to promote campaigns on social media. Now, one of the big campaigns that young people are promoting is borderless Africa, right? The campaign that young people are promoting was to get rid of French imperialism in West Africa. I think a campaign can be constructed in a clever way that would also

Adesoji Iginla (41:42.966)
OK.

Adesoji Iginla (41:49.122)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (42:03.112)
you know, capture the imagination of the youth of Africa. And I think you can use the name of Sankara, you can look at what he did with Bukina Faso. And if that is integrated in the messaging, yeah, I can see that campaign picking up.

Adesoji Iginla (42:20.441)
It's also when you mentioned intellectuals have done the work with regards to this aspect of it. One of the foremost writers in Africa still working the F, Ngugiwa Fiongo.

Milton Allimadi (42:37.93)
In fact, you know, when I started saying intellectuals, I forgot to give their names. Obviously, I met him. I was going to say his name and also, of course, Fanon as well. But yeah, go ahead.

Adesoji Iginla (42:42.585)
So yeah.

Fanon, yeah, Franz Fanon, yes. mean, Franz Fanon, Umuguiwafiungo wrote the book titled Decolonizing the Mind. it's exactly, and it is a brilliant for essay book, very small book. In fact, you, it's hard to put that book down because he broke it down from literature, culture.

Milton Allimadi (43:01.627)
Yep, it does not get any more explicit than that, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (43:20.515)
books and he goes in depth he gives you the reason why it's important to embrace the Africaness. Frantz Fanon does a more explicit if not militant aspect of what Ungegiwate Ongo was doing in terms of you know culture because he actually made sure that you remember what he's talking about his books

Wretched of the Earth. That's one. The next one was Black Skin White Mask. That alone talks about what the comrade is speaking to here, which is stop embracing what is not you. You cannot possibly aspire to be an European because you are not an European. You do a very bad job of it. Let the Europeans be Europeans and you be African. Be your authentic self. And then

Milton Allimadi (43:51.847)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (44:19.955)
compilation of his essays which is the book we'll be looking at at the end of the month which is Towards the African Revolution. This book is ties everything together and it's it's a book we'll be looking at at the end of the month so it just goes to show that the job what this campaign is highlighting here is work that has already been done prior to that and it's not just men

Milton Allimadi (44:24.562)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (44:46.98)
the right.

Adesoji Iginla (44:49.837)
Amaata Aido also did her part. Was the lady from who was going to come on the podcast but you know passed on recently. Her name escapes me now. The lady who passed on the United States after four decades in... No I must get that name but I I remember the name in the course of the program.

So the reason I say all of that is...

Yeah, the name is Misere Gita Mugo. Yeah, so again, it's important that this job be done. The foremost of them all, Cheke Atte Diop, establish that Chemetians, or as they are now known, Egyptians, were originally of African descent.

Milton Allimadi (45:31.172)
You're right.

Adesoji Iginla (45:54.453)
and not of any outer interplanetary bodies. again, kudos to Uganda here for going out of their way to say, listen, enough is enough. We've gotten independence decades ago. It's time we really assert what that independence means in terms of cultural outlook. And so

Milton Allimadi (46:14.286)
Yeah.

Right. Otherwise, what's the meaning of independence, right?

Adesoji Iginla (46:20.964)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean

Milton Allimadi (46:22.623)
You have to be in control of your culture, of your production, and your sovereignty.

Adesoji Iginla (46:31.437)
Mm-hmm. And also, it would be remiss of me if I don't mention the name of Amika Cabral, who actually used culture as the basis of his people revolution. He said first and foremost, go on, go on.

Milton Allimadi (46:49.738)
No, no, I agree with you. In fact, the Portuguese knew the importance of culture more so than some African intellectuals. But Cabral definitely did. In fact, very interesting story. When Cabral was studying, because you know, in many of our cases, the liberators were also schooled in the countries of the oppressors, you know, when they had a chance to get formal education.

Adesoji Iginla (46:55.288)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (46:59.225)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (47:18.775)
Thank you very much.

Milton Allimadi (47:19.038)
So he was educated in Portugal, in Lisbon, you see? But during the summer vacations, he would come back to Guinea-Bissau.

And he had a radio station, I think, in Cape Verde. Not a radio station, but a program on a radio station. And the program was focused on African culture.

Adesoji Iginla (47:39.705)
Yeah, it won our slot. Culture. Culture.

Milton Allimadi (47:47.057)
The program did not last long because the colonial authorities would obviously listen and say, wow, this thing has a connection. It resonates with the African masses. So this guy is still a student, undergraduate student. They banned his radio show. Shows you how effective any platform that discusses African culture and African history was.

Adesoji Iginla (48:12.995)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (48:15.098)
how the colonial regime saw that as such a threat. They banned him. Obviously, that's when they started monitoring him as well. Ultimately, through the time he became the leader of the liberation movement, PAIGC, and they ended up using a stooge to assassinate him.

Adesoji Iginla (48:19.213)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (48:22.914)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (48:36.237)
Fascinating. Yeah. So for the final story, we come to the United Kingdom, specifically to the Oxford Crown Court. And I'm sorry to have to break this news to you. But one of your nationals has been docked. You and so the story comes from the BBC.

Milton Allimadi (49:02.246)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:05.973)
You end judge guilty of forcing women to work as slave.

Adesoji Iginla (49:13.183)
A United Nations judge has been convicted of forcing a young woman to work as a slave in the United Kingdom. Prosecutors said Linda Mugabe took advantage of her status over her victim by preventing her from holding down steady employment while forcing her to work as her maid and provide child care for free. The 49-year-old, who is also a high court judge in Uganda,

was found guilty of conspiring to facilitate the commission of a breach of UK immigration law, facilitating travel with a view to exploitation, forcing someone to work and conspiracy to intimidate a witness. She will be sentenced at Oxford Crown Court on May the 2nd. In footage released by Thames Valley police, Mugabe appeared shocked when an officer said

he was arresting her under the Modern Slavery Act. She then had a conversation with the officer in which she said, I am a judge in my country. I even have immunity. I am not a criminal. Asking to reaffirm that she had immunity, Mugabe told the officer, yes, I have a diplomatic passport. The conversation ended with the defendant saying, I came here as a student. I don't need anyone to work for me.

I didn't come with her. She asked me because she had walked at my home before. She asked me, she repeated. Before I go any further, what's your initial take on this?

Milton Allimadi (50:50.679)
Well, I need more details, but you know, we are familiar with cases of African diplomats, particularly, who subsequently have been and you see that's, know, okay, so first of all, we have many situations of exploitation back on the continent where the urban elite

Adesoji Iginla (50:54.338)
you

Adesoji Iginla (50:58.265)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (51:12.398)
Mm.

Yes.

Milton Allimadi (51:18.57)
And it's different. Sometimes they bring people from the rural areas who work for them as maids, they call them, preparing food, taking care of their home, taking care of their children. In some cases, I know that the maids are paid. I know that they are, in some cases, allowed to improve their conditions in life by going to school.

Adesoji Iginla (51:22.328)
Okay. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (51:28.515)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (51:48.183)
And having some money that they can actually also send back to the rural areas, right? But we also know of many situations where they're practically kept as enslaved labor, you see? Exporting their labor, they're not getting adequate or commensurate compensation for the work that they perform. And this situation is actually ongoing as we speak in many African countries in the urban areas.

Adesoji Iginla (51:55.499)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (52:02.059)
Yep. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (52:08.857)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (52:18.527)
where the elite exploit fellow Africans that they bring in from the rural areas. So I don't have enough detail on this, but it seems to me that what might have transpired, just judging by her own words of this judge, is that she had a similar relationship with somebody who was a maid while they were in Uganda. So the question is, was she treating her fairly in Uganda?

Adesoji Iginla (52:31.363)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (52:38.329)
.

Milton Allimadi (52:48.518)
or was she not treating her fairly? So that also will obviously determine the credibility of this judge in this case. But I guess she has now already been convicted, you see? But that's important part of the narrative. But also, you know, we know that they're very loose with these laws as we speak right now. There many diplomats, not only African diplomats, by the way.

Adesoji Iginla (52:48.759)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (53:03.033)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (53:18.229)
But from Asia, from South America, from the Caribbean, maybe from other European countries as well, right? Who have somebody from their home country, right? Who is providing labor for them? The labor laws in many of these countries, such as Britain, for example, right? Are very different from the labor laws in the countries from where they come. Or is different in sense that

Adesoji Iginla (53:18.614)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (53:24.921)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (53:44.291)
back home.

Milton Allimadi (53:48.667)
in these countries like Britain and other places, they are much more likely to enforce those laws. Because she may have laws in Uganda as well, but they may not be enforced. So I'm not saying she was exploiting this lady while they were in Uganda, but if she was, maybe it's because the laws in Uganda were not being enforced. So that's just the context that I want to put out there.

Adesoji Iginla (54:12.963)
Yeah, okay. So I would finish up and there she is. so gaps were heard from the public gallery as the verdict were given and the court was cleared as the defendants appeared unwell. Caroline Hoxie, King's counsel, prosecuting told jurors during the trial, Lydia Magubay had exploited and abused her alleged victim.

taking advantage of her lack of understanding of her rights to properly paid employment and deceiving her as to the purpose of her coming to the UK.

She alleged Mugabe, who was studying for a law PhD at the University of Oxford, had conspired with Uganda's Deputy High Commissioner John Leonard Mugewe to arrange for the young woman to come to the UK. Prosecutors said the pair participated in a very dishonest trade-off in which Mugabe Mugewe arranged for the Ugandan High Commission to sponsor the woman's entrance into the United Kingdom.

In exchange, Ms. Mugabe would attempt to speak to a judge who was in charge of a legal action Mr. Mugabeva was named in. OK.

Milton Allimadi (55:33.231)
I see, so now there's a quick alleged quid pro quo involved, which even makes it much more complicated beyond just the labor exploitation or somebody's labor. Yeah, now you have a conspiracy to bring her in unlawfully under false pretext and in return, you are going to actually obstruct justice as part of the quid pro quo.

Adesoji Iginla (55:34.489)
Quit your poo!

Adesoji Iginla (55:45.113)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

to it.

Adesoji Iginla (56:00.095)
Back home. Yeah. Yes.

Milton Allimadi (56:02.777)
Okay, now I see it.

Adesoji Iginla (56:06.103)
So, it's like you said, it's emblematic of people who use, I mean, the fact that she cited diplomatic immunity immediately knew she knew she was, she was wrong. She wasn't the wrong because if you've got nothing to hide, you would start, you know, why are you arresting me? You prove your case and that's it. Or citing diplomatic immunity at the fact that you're being arrested.

Milton Allimadi (56:11.325)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (56:36.327)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (56:36.407)
means you knew clearly well that you are not on solid ground.

So it's.

Milton Allimadi (56:44.508)
Yeah, think obviously this is a, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some African diplomats now sending people back home very quickly who have been providing labor for them, you see? Yeah, because obviously they're not paying them the wage rates that would prevail in the United Kingdom, you see? Right.

Adesoji Iginla (57:03.993)
Mm. Correct. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, I mean, that said, we've come to the end of another exciting program, and I hope you got valuable information from it. Again, like we said, share, like, subscribe to the channel. And we also do in the course of the week,

Milton Allimadi (57:26.491)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (57:31.039)
Women and Resistance, which is a podcast that showcases the contribution of women in African history that I do with Sister Aya Fubera and Aaliyah Squire. So that is Wednesday, 7pm Eastern. Again, you know, we continue to grow. Do support what we do here. You know, you can contribute to our Patreon.

sign up to share in our content wherever it comes across your timeline. Each one teach one, each one reach one as they say. So thank you again, comrade, for coming through and your words.

Milton Allimadi (58:07.619)
Yeah, absolutely.

Milton Allimadi (58:15.255)
my pleasure always, man. It's important for us to continue sharing light with sisters and brothers, and also, of course, welcoming their own input and suggestions if they want us to evaluate and critique any media outlet, just let us know. We're happy to do that. It's a collective effort, you know?

Adesoji Iginla (58:28.409)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (58:35.255)
Yeah. Collective effort, yes. And yes, drop your likes, your comments at the bottom of the video. Like the good comrade said, if you have stories that you think we should run, put it in the comments. Any way that we can improve the program, put it in the comments. We'll take it on board. And again,

Until we come again next week, comrade.

Milton Allimadi (59:09.805)
Alluta continua.

Adesoji Iginla (59:12.535)
Victory are setter and from me is Adesuji and it's goodbye for now and God bless.

Milton Allimadi (59:20.111)
Thank you.