EP 1 The Groundings With My Brothers with Dr Patricia Rodney I African News Review 🌍

In this enlightening conversation, host Adesoji Iginla and guests Milton Allimadi ; Aya Fubara Eneli and Special Guest, Dr Patricia Rodney delve into the themes of Walter Rodney's work, particularly focusing on 'Groundings with My Brothers.' 
They explore the historical context of activism, the role of academia, and the importance of community engagement. The discussion highlights the challenges faced by women in activism, the need for re-education, and the constructive use of Black Power. The guests share personal experiences and insights, emphasizing the ongoing struggle for social justice and empowerment.

Takeaways
*Walter Rodney's work emphasizes the connection between academia and activism.
*Community support is crucial during times of struggle.
*The importance of understanding historical context in activism.
*Women play a vital role in the struggle for social justice.
*Black Power should be used constructively, not destructively.
*Empathy and understanding are essential for effective activism.
*Re-educating ourselves is necessary for progress.
*Activism requires a balance between personal and collective goals.
*The struggle for equality is ongoing and requires unity.
*Engaging with the community is key to effective activism.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to the Circle and Guests
05:52 Overview of 'Groundings with My Brothers'
15:20 Personal Experiences and Activism
22:18 The Role of Women in Activism
35:02 Bridging Academia and Activism
42:15 Call to Action and Conclusion
43:35 Exploring the Book's Themes
44:18 Historical Context and Research Advances
45:10 The Concept of the Middle East
46:00 Normalization of Oppression
47:48 The Importance of Historical Analysis
49:14 Silencing Voices and Erasure
50:54 Colorblindness and Its Implications
52:40 The Value of African History
54:14 Classism and Community Responsibility
57:00 The Role of Black Power
59:24 Re-educating Ourselves
01:01:58 The Need for New Skills
01:03:12 Cultural and Political Roles of History
01:04:49 The Impact of Indoctrination
01:06:56 Empathy and Awareness
01:09:29 Constructive Action and Self-Respect
01:10:52 The Complexity of Black Identity
01:13:13 Understanding Black Power
01:15:02 Destructive vs. Constructive Power
01:18:30 The Global Impact of Indoctrination

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.748)
Circle, a monthly conversation in which we are looking at a book of popular interest and I am your host Adeesoji Iginla. And with me as usual is journalist and publisher Black Star News, a broadcaster WBAI 99.5. He previously taught African history at John Jay College of Criminal Justice. He holds degree in journalism and economics from Columbia University.

Columbia and Syracuse University respectively. His book, Manufacturing Hate, How Africa Was Demonized in the Western Media, inspired African News Review, which you're already part of. And she also mentioned in his free time is an explorer. I welcome Brother Milton Alibarate. Thank you. Thank you to all our guests and the comrades on the show today. Yes. And Sister Aya, my sister from another mother.

What can I say? A distinguished leader and dynamic speaker whose expertise spans law, academia, diversity training. I wonder how that will play out now. Non-profit leadership training. Our life coaching. Aya's career is a reflection of her deep commitment to the empowerment and inclusivity, which will bode well with this book we're about to read, and social justice.

She holds impressive academic records, having earned a jury stock rate and a master of arts in black studies, along with bachelor of arts degrees in political science and English, all from the Ohio State University. Her legal career has focused on critical areas such as domestic violence, estate planning, and education law, and showcasing her dedication to societal well-being. She's the regular host of Rethinking Freedom.

which bodes well to what we want to do in this present day. She's also the founder of Intelligent and Talented Girls, a mentoring program that has served over 350 girls in central Texas, empowering the next generation of leaders. Our passion for community service is further evident in her effort to establish the first public library in Opobo, Nigeria, and her work with the school providing quality education.

Adesoji Iginla (02:26.701)
for nearly 200 children. Aya's work has been featured in major media outlets such as MSNBC, ABC, Entrepreneur Magazine, and Black Enterprise, solidifying her as a leading voice in personal development and empowerment. She is married to Dr. Kenichiku Eneli since 1997. They are parents to five amazing young adults. She is also the author of

the best selling book on Amazon, Self-Love Revolution. Her writing profiles profound insight into self-empowerment and personal growth. Welcome, Sister Ivo. Thank you. The special guest is none other than Dr. Patricia Rodney. Dr. Patricia Rodney holds a PhD degree in sociology minor in adult education from the on

Ontario Institute for Students in Education, University of Toronto, an MPH degree in health education and health promotion from Emory, Atlanta, Georgia, and an SRN from the Royal Northern Hospital in London, England. Prior to joining the faculty of Morehouse School of Medicine in 1995, she was a research fellow at the Canadian Advisory Council on the status of women in Ottawa, Canada.

between 1994 and 1995, program coordinator of the International Tax Force on Literacy at the International Council for Adult Education in Toronto, Canada, 1989 to 1983. Dr. Rodney has lived and worked in Barbados, Canada, England, Guyana, Jamaica, Tanzania, and the United States. In the areas of early childhood education, nursing, and public health,

She is a stalwart. She also emphasized social work and women, gender, and development. She has traveled to over 30 countries. During her 15-year academic tenure at Morehouse School of Medicine in Atlanta, Georgia, between 1995 to 2010, she was promoted director, program director of MPH, Department of Community Health and Preventative Medicine.

Adesoji Iginla (04:54.581)
and was the inaugural assistant dean for the public health education. Dr. Rodney is currently the adjunct, is an adjunct, adjunct professor, department of community health and preventative medicine, Morehouse School of Medicine. Since 2006, however, Dr. Rodney has been the CEO of the Walter Rodney Foundation to further Walter Rodney's legacy by sharing his work and fostering the unit utilization.

of his historical analysis and scholar activism to effect transformative global change. And the foundation was established by the Rodney family in Atlanta, Georgia. I think we'll need more of that actually at the moment. In 2011, Dr. Rodney established Partners in Health, Education, and Development, an international development consultancy organization. Welcome, Dr. Rodney. Thank you.

Yes. Thank you very much. yes, I want to first of all say she took this call at a very short notice, a testament to her willing ability to encourage community development. And it's also important that we carry this message forward in however we go dealing. And the book we are talking about today is The Ground is with My Brothers. Well.

A brief overview of the book. It's... Yeah, I have my copy too. Yes, thank you, thank you. So the book was originally published in 1969, came again into reprint with Vessel Books in 2019. It's broken into six chapters and accompanied by six essays, one of which we have, one of the essay writers we have in our midst today and

was also there during the making of the book. So she would give us an overview of what it was like to be at the forefront of this book coming into fruition and also how it was living through those times. Mama Rodney. Hi. I don't think when we moved to Jamaica in 1968, there was a plan to write a book.

Adesoji Iginla (07:21.037)
Walter was there as a faculty member of the University of the West Indies. He had returned as an alumnus to teach African history. He always felt that the university was an ivory tower and that the academics were separated from the masses of the people. So while teaching,

students at the university. He also started engaging with people in the communities, whether they were students, students or the Rastafarian brothers. He went outside of the university to, as the book says, with brothers.

So it was just a natural part of living in Jamaica. However, we got to Jamaica in January and from January until October, that's what he did. He taught at the university and then had classes wherever people wanted to meet, he would meet them to have those classes.

And in October, he left to attend a Black Writers Conference in Montreal, Canada, and was supposed to return in a few days. On his way back into Jamaica, he was not allowed to disembark from the plane. He was sent back to Canada. A colleague who traveled with him, Dr. Robert Hill, Bobby Hill, was the

was able to tell us what was going on. And from that notice, we were able to organize with the students on campus. I was a student at the time on campus to organize a protest to the prime minister's office, object to Rodney being banned.

Adesoji Iginla (09:47.785)
And so students set out to march to demonstrate and the students were all told, excuse me, by faculty, should wear our academic gowns to distinguish ourselves from the rest of the population, which is a whole nother discussion about class. So we proceeded from the Mona campus.

into the city and on the way to the demonstration lots of people came out from their houses including Mrs. Garvey to support the students demonstration. Before we could get into the city we were accosted by the police and the army. Students were tear gassed, some were injured.

And the demonstration was joined by workers and people downtown who was already, as Rodney said, feeling the frustrations about the economic situation in Jamaica. So this was just like the pot boiled over for them. they too protested.

that Rodney who they called Brother Wally, because they knew him from talking to them as ordinary people, objected to what was happening. And so there were some people were killed, they were burning of buses and people don't understand why those buses were burned. Just a few weeks ago, they had raised the fare, the bus fare. So people were already frustrated. It was

structural adjustment going on. there were lots of problems, economic problems that ordinary families were facing. this Rodney, as they now call it a Rodney riot, was the frustration being expressed by working peoples in Jamaica. It just happened that Rodney was the stimulus for that. So

Adesoji Iginla (12:13.077)
He was never able to return to Jamaica. I was with Shaka, my son, who was about 18 months, two years old, and I was pregnant with Kenini. And so I had to make, I was on that march with students. And so after that, I had to be put,

on bed rest, the campus was blockaded, the campus was shut down. Nobody could enter the campus, nobody could leave the campus. That's what the government ordered. That happened. I was stuck on campus without my son, because my son, I had left him that morning with my neighbors. Her, one of the doctors was also a student at the time and the two kids.

were left with the home help. And so I didn't see my son for about five days because I was stuck on campus. Couldn't get off campus because also I had problems. They thought I would lose the baby. So I was put on bed rest. Finally, all that, I had to make arrangements to leave Jamaica because Walter was no longer in

employed. So we had to, I had to give up the house where we were leaving, where we were living at the time and stay with my neighbors, the same neighbors until I left Jamaica. yeah. So what had happened was that Walter had all these speeches that were already written. And so

We met, the arrangement was that we would meet in London. I would meet him in London, because he was still in Canada. So we met in London, and that's when the speeches were handed over to a group of friends, not just the Huntlies, but Ewer Thomas, Richard Small, a group of Caribbean.

Adesoji Iginla (14:37.779)
activists, I would say, who were in love at the time. And then the plan was that we would go to Cuba because Walter wanted to get away and to be able to write about what was happening. so he went on to Cuba from London.

And I was supposed to follow him to Cuba, accompany him. But we had problems with getting a visa in a timely manner. As I said, I was pregnant. And at that time, you could only travel by air up to a certain time of your pregnancy. And it was seven months. We couldn't travel after that. And so...

I was scared. I didn't want to be stuck in London being pregnant. So I decided we decided I would go back to Tanzania where we had made, really built a community of friends. And I knew that that would be the best place at that time. And so I went ahead to Tanzania and I left London December 68 and went to Tanzania.

So Kanini was born in Tanzania. She's Israeli. Kanini means Kidogo, a Kikuyu name. And so I stayed in Tanzania with Shaka and the baby. And then Walter joined us. We were there from December and Walter joined us in June of 69. Wow.

Thank you. Sister Aya, do you have a question? As a woman, I am blown away. I haven't known what it is to be pregnant. There's so much that I want to ask you, but just on a personal level, what was it like being part of this work? Because it wasn't just Dr. Rodney, Walter Rodney was you as well in the midst of all of this. And then...

Adesoji Iginla (17:02.805)
really having your life in peril and you're with child and just navigating all of these issues at the same time. What was that like for you? You were a young woman. I mean, what did your family say? Cause I can imagine some families today will say, leave that troublesome man alone and come back home. are smart. can have family didn't say it, but other people said it. What did she do with this man? Yeah. it was.

I don't know, in Jamaica?

The students rallied around. The students were very supportive. My neighbors were extraordinary. They were like family. So there were lots of frustrations dealing with a bank, dealing with the university and getting things wrapped up. But there was always, I always felt I had that support of a community, whether they were students or my neighbors who, the Hamilton's who

took us in as part of the family. But the university just abandoned you and Dr. Rodney? Basically, basically, would say, Basically, we still have that ongoing discussion about the university. Basically, they just, yeah. Because the government had also threatened the vice chancellor at the time.

because what they wanted was the vice chancellor to fire Rodney even before he went off to Canada, Montreal. And the vice chancellor said, no, he's one of the best faculty we have. He hasn't done anything as far as I know. And so we can do it as the university. So the government used opportunity when he was out of the country. So it was very, I think,

Adesoji Iginla (19:01.721)
One never knows your capacity until you're faced with a situation. And I felt he didn't do anything wrong. I didn't have anything to feel guilty about. I was just we were just living our lives and he was contributing to the society by educating Black people, the majority of the people in Jamaica and the Caribbean about who they are as people.

the whole issue around self-emancipation of the mind. That's all he was doing. But to them, that was dangerous. Of course. It is more dangerous than carrying a gun because words are powerful. people said, well, he must be up to something. Why would a university professor want to go into these areas? There are people who live in these areas, aren't there?

working with other people. But it just shows you how the issue is not just of race, it's of class and the Caribbean, which people tend to downplay, but it's very powerful when you put the two together, class and race, because there's racism in the Caribbean, let's face it, the lighter you are, the better you survive in society.

Yes, the whole issue around Black power was very threatening to them because it exposed these Black leaders as not really having the interests of Black people and working people. so, So, yeah. Sometimes I look back too and I, you know, like I would write something or I have this interview with this journalist.

And I hadn't seen it in several years. Late I was reading and I said, Oh my God, I didn't realize. This is me saying this. was in my twenties, you know, so situations force you to.

Adesoji Iginla (21:16.231)
see the realities of those conditions. And I think I saw that when we first went to Jamaica. For example, Walter lived in Jamaica before as an undergraduate student. Yeah, so he knew Jamaica very well. So when I got to Jamaica, that was my first time in January 16. And when we settled in to the hotel, because we didn't have a house then, they put us up in a, Walter said,

I was very excited about seeing Jamaica, how beautiful it is. And he said, okay, when you have a rest, I want to take you and show you the true Jamaica, because they're true Jamaica. And so that in itself was, my God, I never consciously seen such a disparity in such close proximity. You you have to go outside sometimes in countries to see the disparity.

Here it was blatant because the middle class, the wealthy lived up on the hills and then the dongles, as we call it, is on the ground. You can't escape it. And so that was my first exposure, I would say, to Jamaica that made me rethink what I had seen. And then going with Walter.

to some of these meetings, I didn't go to all of them whenever I went to these meetings, these grounding meetings, I saw where people were living and how people were living. So that in itself raised my own consciousness. But I would go back even further and say that in Guyana in the 50s,

We had one of the first socialist governments in that region. And so our generation was already exposed to some of those issues of colonialism and neo colonialism. We were hearing those things as 10 year olds and 11 year olds. I didn't know what they mean. But our parents took us to these political meetings every night. So you had an understanding.

Adesoji Iginla (23:38.687)
of not just Guyana, but the rest of the Caribbean and even Florida. You were exposed to things like when there were strikes, you understand why people were striking, you know? And so there was a lot of solidarity at that time in the fifties between Indians and African Guyanese around issues of wages and different things. So I think

And then living in England and training as a nurse in England, you also felt the racism and saw the racism. I think Walter and his buddies more than I did because I lived within an institution, a nursing complex. And so some of the day-to-day things like having to find housing or seeking a job, I did not experience, but you experience

the racism from the patients you're actually helping. Right. Yes. All those things help you to grow as a person. And you don't realize it until you're confronted with a situation and how you respond to that situation. Thank you for being who you are. And as you were speaking, I couldn't help but think of

by no choice of your own, you are part of this rarefied group of women, black women who became young widows just because they were in the struggle, they were married to men who were in the struggle and thought that, you know, we're getting married, we're gonna have a family and, quote unquote, live happily ever after, whatever that means.

And so I'm thinking of Patrice Lumumba's wife, Martin Luther King, Martin X. And I'm glad to hear that at least at some point you felt like you had that support to be able to endure, because I cannot imagine. I think my children have also played a major role in how I have navigated their father's assassination. They were young.

Adesoji Iginla (25:59.181)
Shaka was only 14, he wasn't quite 14. Kanini was 11 and Ash in nine. And I don't think I could have survived it without, let's say survived it without them. They were my focus and they gave me the strength to do what I had to do, to make sure that they were okay.

All right, so what I like most about the late Walter Rodney was how he always reminded us to make the connection that it's a global system. It's not isolated. And today, in most critiques, people tend to forget that. We start focusing on individuals in the US. We keep talking about Trump, Trump, Trump without critiquing the system that produces monsters like that.

Some of my favorite essays, mean, lectures that are on YouTube, race and class in Guyanese politics, crisis in the periphery, Africa and the Caribbean. So basically I have this observation and then I want to read a little bit from what you yourself wrote in the essay that you contributed to the book. What would Walter say today if he were to see the

the scene and its effect on African people on the continent today in the Caribbean and here in the United States. What would he say? But before that, I just want to read this what you wrote. For Walter, groundings were not isolated events. Rather, groundings exemplified his approach to life. One where academic and activism were integrated and inseparable in the pursuit

of equality, justice, and a common humanity. And then, I like that you spoke about Jamaica, and you also wrote, when you got there, you realized that you also were relatively privileged compared to the people that you wanted to engage with. And you wrote, we had a seemingly ideal life at the same time that we were the products of working class families.

Adesoji Iginla (28:27.777)
We were also enjoying academic privileges and social access afforded by his academic position. Walter, however, was torn by the lack of connection between academia and the working class. And he had a strong desire to bridge these worlds." quote. So your observations. First, what would he, in terms of assessing today's conditions,

And then anything else you want to add about the Jamaica aspect? I don't want to speak for Walter, but if you go back to groundings with my brother, not groundings, if you go to how Europe on the developed Africa, yes, changed. I think people need to read it again. Thank you. Things change. That's what I would say. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (29:24.693)
Okay, I love that. mean, yeah, you can't, that's one of my favorite books, you know. I almost got up to reach for my show. I know, I was looking across like, no, I can't get up to that. In fact, I actually, in one of the books, I did a book review for my classes last semester. that, all right, so that answers my question. I'll desert you back to you. Okay.

Yeah, was a part in the essay Mama Rodney wrote, and it's quite telling. And you said, I want to quote you.

second.

Adesoji Iginla (30:21.035)
Yes, you said, Walter, however, was torn by the lack of connection between the academy and the working class. He had a very strong desire to bridge this world. He was convinced not only he could impact his knowledge and understanding of history, social construct and political analysis to students and working class, but he could foster a culture of grassroots change and empower people with tools.

to implement such change. Could you elaborate more on what you meant there? Well, as I said, the university was removed from the masses. You were privileged to go to university. So only children of the middle class or if you were exceptionally bright and was able to get a scholarship that you went to university.

of the West Indies at that time was the only university, the only campus in the region. And it was very elitist. And so there was very little going on between faculty didn't leave necessarily leave the campus to go outside of the campus. I think Rodney influenced a whole new generation of academics after 1968 to begin to do that work.

So out of that came a lot of younger people, for example, Professor Verene Shepherd and others who saw the importance of going to the masses of people to really understand you can't do research and write papers just to get publications without addressing the needs of the people.

I think that's what he meant. What are you doing research? Who is the research for? Is it just to get a promotion or is it really to serve of some value to the people who are the ones who pay for your university education? This is the labor of those workers. That's the of the university. It's not private people who support the university.

Adesoji Iginla (32:48.005)
of the West Indies that were supported on the taxes of working people. And so, yes, I think he felt that that gap needed to be filled in order to really change the system that we live in. Because even though we got independence, a lot of our institutions were just tinkered with. Our educational system never really changed.

Absolutely. Never really addressed the issues. You know, we were learning the same history that we were learning on the colonial governments. Right. You know, history now in some high schools in the Caribbean are not being taught. They're destroying history departments and making them into social science. Without the history, you do not know who you are. You no Absolutely. You know, so yes.

But sadly, that is a problem that is a contemporary problem as well, even today. And then the other thing, I'm sure he also had some resistance from his own peers. yes, definitely. Definitely. And that's one of the reasons we lived off campus. Walter did not want to live on the campus because living on the campus, you're isolated from people generally. So we lived off campus. And there's the...

There was this senior, senior, there's a senior club, know, based on the British, it's a senior academic club, where only senior faculty hang out and Walter, he didn't want to waste his time, so he wanted to spend his time doing other things. So he wasn't, he wasn't very popular among some faculty. And I remember when he was banned, a faculty member came and asked me, senior faculty.

Is it true that Walter hung out with Rastafarian? Yes, they're people, aren't they? But this is the way they viewed the Rastafarians, that they weren't really, you know. Yeah, they were Eurocentric minds, you know. Just out of curiosity, was that?

Adesoji Iginla (35:10.125)
senior faculty of African descent? Who that? Yes, yes. Most of the faculty were African descent. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Wow, the indoctrination. Yes. African body. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, he wasn't very popular among a lot of, even now. mean, you know, the papers, I had offered the papers to

the University of the West Indies a long time ago and they weren't interested. They saw him as an perhaps and they felt it was too dangerous. don't know. now as an activist, but did any one of them publish a book of the caliber of how Europe underdeveloped Africa? And that's why we had to my aim of securing the papers

was not to sell the papers because the paper have no value in terms of money, monetary value. I wanted the papers to be in a place where people, black people in particular, have accessed it. And so we finally found a wonderful space here in Atlanta at the Woodroof Atlanta AU Center. So all the colleges

and universities have accessed it. I would like to see more of the HBCUs use the archives because there's so much. Walter was so prolific. There are things there that he has written that has not even been published yet. We keep finding things. I know where I'm heading. know where I'm heading.

No, no, no, I'll beat you. I'll beat you, there. I'll beat you, of you. The aim of setting up the foundation is to carry on his work, not just to court Rodney, but to take his principles and advance those principles. Rodney was 38 years old when he was killed. So he was killed in the prime of his life, of his thinking, of his growth, of everything. So...

Adesoji Iginla (37:35.361)
What needs to happen is young people need to take that information and develop some framework out of that, know, to advance it. Correct.

Yeah. that age, age 38, 38, 39, we have so many of our bright minds and leaders that were just cut down in that. Yeah. there's some formula about not letting them hit 40. Exactly. Exactly. I think it's deliberate, you know. You're right. I think so. So, Sariah, you hit it right on the nail. Yeah. And we need to document, you know, to publish.

Because if we don't write about ourselves, other people write about us. And then we use the same literature they've written about us to teach students. So Dr. Rodney, there's clearly, clearly still so much work for us to do. And we might even say that it looks like, at least here in the US, it looks like we're going to Jim Crow 3.0, in my opinion. Jim and Jane Crow.

As I was reading or rereading this book and thinking about how you and him and your family were moving through the world. mean, here you're in Jamaica and then you're in Tanzania, you've gone to London, he's in Cuba. You're having the baby in Tanzania when he's in Cuba and then he comes back. But all the time knowing that there are world leaders basically looking at him and perceiving him as a threat, I was also thinking about, and I know that,

Keisha-Khan Perry has now written a book called The Groundings with My Sisters. But it seems like we know, not it seems like, we know that women have always been an integral part of this struggle. But a lot of times not having the same kind of public stature as the men. And as I was thinking about the groundings and thinking of myself as a woman and just.

Adesoji Iginla (39:41.303)
how do we navigate these spaces? Because then there are also issues of beyond the political pressures, it's you are also female and being in certain places might not be safe for you. How did you navigate all of that? And what would be your message to women today who are feeling the call to activism but are not quite sure how do I do this and balance quote unquote life?

I think you should read Robin Bongo Jerry Small, The Conscious Youth, that chapter, because there's a fallacy. mean, the book was called Grounding with My Brothers, but that didn't mean that they weren't women. And he talks about this here in his chapter. I would say, as Walter had said, wherever you are, you can make a difference, whether you work in a factory.

whether you work in academia. I mean, my academic struggles, my academia wasn't smooth either working in academia because I was working in a very conservative space, medicine. And here I was doing public health and wanted my students to think differently before they act. That when they going off to Africa, they need to know that they are not the experts. You you're going there to learn.

And so at any space you're in, you can use the knowledge you have to talk to young people because not just lecture to them, but have an open disk. Some things you don't know and you say, I don't know, let's do it together. I think, and being able to listen to them because these young people are very bright, you know? And sometimes we treat them

as if they don't have a brain. We want to tell them what to do. We have to listen to them and say, perhaps there's another way of doing it, but this is the way I've done it. Perhaps I can learn from you how to do it more quickly, but not necessarily efficiently. You know what I mean? There needs to be a dialogue all the time and not separate ourselves thinking that we have all the knowledge.

Adesoji Iginla (42:07.629)
because we don't. You know, I always tell my students when they go out, people know what their problems are.

And they probably need some help in articulating it in a certain way so they can present it in order for it become policy. But they know it. You don't know it. You can't go in there being the expert because you don't know. You know, and lots of times whether I see people going overseas, whether they're black or white, they behave in this way, obnoxious way.

And so people turn off. You can't tell me what to do. So you lose an audience right away rather than listening and saying, okay, this is another way you may want to approach the problem. Why don't you try this way and tell me how it works the next time we get together.

Thank you. I know you don't have much time, but I wonder if I could just ask one more question. there a part where you wrote, in March 1971, our second daughter, Asha, was born? Although we love living in Tanzania, the unprecedented political changes occurring in the country were of concern to the left and other progressive comrades on campus. Do you recall what those

events were at that time in 71? Let me see what was happening. set of politicians were accused in Tanzania of trying to overthrow the government.

Adesoji Iginla (44:00.077)
I don't know if it was true or not, but people were in prison. Some people left. I see as a result of that. Okay. For example. Oh, yes. was actually when you said that that Mohammed Babu's name came to my mind. I see. So we used to go to visit him in prison because we were very close family friends. Right. So yeah. And then there were people who were I remember this particular family. They were not

They weren't the children who were born in Tanzania. The parents came from a neighboring country. And when all the furor began, people began to say they're not really Tanzanians because they weren't born here. You know, their parents were not Tanzanians. The usual thing. And so that made us rethink. We could have stayed in Tanzania and just live like expatriates.

if we want to have a good life and live that way. But that's never what we wanted. So we thought, OK, we should go home. At least we know the terrain at home. You have family support, because in Tanzania we didn't have family. Yeah. And that all went on.

The people who had contributed to his education, he wanted to give back to that society and the Caribbean. And so that was a reason for returning to Ghana. wasn't anything we weren't asked to leave Tanzania as most people think. We were never asked to leave Tanzania. We decided it was time to leave. And if you read Hergé, Shivji Hergé, you you clearly let...

Rodney had this discussion with him too about why he couldn't stay in Tanzania because there's so many nuances you don't understand. You can speak a language, but there's things that you don't understand about that society. To be truly involved in it and he felt he wanted to be involved and that's why we joined the Guyana. Okay, now I understand. Yeah, and Babu of course went on to become a very prominent

Adesoji Iginla (46:23.487)
individual once he was released and he left the country. left the country and he was in London. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Rodney, what's interesting that you refer to living in Tanzania as we could have still lived there as expatriates because when you come to Africa, you're an expatriate. Yes. But if you come to America or Europe, you're an immigrant. they're very different.

very different social classifications in terms of how each term is. course. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good observation. Immigrants are to be dehumanized, but expatriates have. Yeah, we live privileged lives as an expatriate. Yeah, we can have coffee mornings and all those things.

I mean, again, I have to thank you for coming through. But before you leave us, what would you like as a call to action to, I mean, you've told us we need to get to the Walter Rodney archives. Right. Yeah. But what would be your call to action in light of what is the United States today? I am going to twist that section.

that question and say the March 21st is our annual symposium or 22nd annual symposium. And the theme this year is we only having one day. Usually we have two days, we'll be just having it one day. And the struggle goes on. So that can tell you a lot about the questions you asked. Yeah, and

The struggle goes on in applying Rodney's five principles that we think are important. Be conscious, history matters, see the future, inform and be informed, and unity and struggle. Yes. So I hope all of you can come. definitely. And also when you have the promotional material ready, please share it with us and we will also.

Adesoji Iginla (48:42.285)
posted online and on Black Star. I don't know about Brother Milton, but I'm going to be there. Okay, great. It'll be fun meeting you in person. Yes, ma'am. Yeah. Yeah, this has been very delightful and very enlightening. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us. you. Thank you for coming, Tell none about that. Okay, kohere.

Adesoji Iginla (49:24.653)
brother Alamadi leave? I think he left. He was too enamored about what transpired. So yeah, back to the groundings with my brothers. What were the chapters that stood out to you? mean, you could take it anyway. is so much. First of all, I had to pull out my dictionary and there's still one word that I did not find the first time I read through the book and I'm still looking for the definition. So if you have it,

And it is death modification. And I yeah. But we can we can we can continue to talk about that. But where do I start with with this with with this book, first of all,

I think it's important that people recognize when the book was published and that since then there's been a lot more research that has been done that can shed more light on some things. So there were some aspects of things that were acquiesced in terms of what Africans have and have not done and where things originated that I feel we now have more knowledge about that. But what was interesting to me, and we'll get into the more nitty gritty stuff, but what was interesting to me in those opening chapters where he's talking about

Africa and what came from the Middle East versus Africa versus Asia and all of that. I just had to write in my notes, middle of what East? I mean, like there's no other landmass that is just, know, like where did that terminology come from? Except in my opinion, in research, I think we'll back this up, that you've got to separate.

a landmass and the accomplishments from Africa. And so you just, it's just in the middle here. And then I went back to look at what was the origin of Middle East. And of course we know it was a British man. He started it in the 20th century. This is very recent that all of a sudden this area is Middle East and the political, reasonings behind not attaching it. it's not, didn't, he could have said Northern Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (51:41.793)
But we have to divorce it from Africa. So that was just something that stood out. And then given what we're going through, for those of you who might be paying attention to the madness literally going on in the United States of America right now, what I was also thinking about, and this was a term that they use in the book, was the normalization of oppression. And how that can just beat people down where it's like,

well, I guess this is as good as it gets or we can't aspire to more and your oppression, you living not even sure where you're getting your next meal from when you talk about the Rastafarians and how even now their land is under attack. We can talk about in the United States, Gula Geechee area and Hilton Head and how there are still ongoing issues right now about leave our land alone. And of course,

We can now bring Greenland into the conversation. Apparently America thinks that they can just go in colonize again. So we think we tend to think we're in a post-colonial period, but there are still colonies all over the world. And also that are white people owning black and brown people or attempting to anyway, go ahead. And also we tri-gast to the naming of places you want to rename Gulf of Mexico, Gulf of.

I can't even bring myself to say it because it's laughable and stupid. It's laughable and stupid, but that doesn't mean that they're not trying. Yeah, I know. And if we don't resist, it doesn't mean they won't succeed. I mean, to buttress that bit, what's his name? Brother Walter Rodney. He invokes the name of Stokely Carmichael a lot. the reason why I think

that is important is he also says which is read, be informed, inform others, right? Stokely Carmichael in his book, titled Stokely Carmichael Speaks, yeah, Stokely Speaks. There is a part there where Mumia Abou Juma who wrote the foreword said he was in conversation with him. And if you permit me, I should read this part.

Adesoji Iginla (54:06.529)
He said, true revolutionaries must not bum rush the mic, but take valuable time to study. He explains, because revolutionary theories are based on historical analysis, one must study, one must understand one history. One must make the correct historical analysis. At the correct moment, you must make your historical leap and carry the struggle forward. Not only that, you cannot rep if you really don't know what you're saying.

If you don't know the answer, 14 months ago, it became clear to me that the black community was heading for political chaos. I knew that if I didn't have the answers, it was silly for me to stay here and keep rapping about what I didn't know. Why should I stay here to get up on television and tell you a whole lot of nonsense? It only caused confusion in my community and I didn't want to do that. Confusion is the greatest enemy of revolution.

confusion is the greatest enemy of revolution. that is Stokely Carmichael speaking the same man, Walter Rodney references. So multiple times. So it's the mind boggles that now we are in the age of hold on to that thought. then of course we know Jamaica went out of its way to ban every book that Stokely Carmichael wrote.

And also, don't forget, fast forward now, they're banning the books that you write about your history, just like Mama Rodney reminds us, we need to write those books. Now they're banning the books you've written about you. What does that sound like? That's modern age counseling. Yeah. It's a continued silencing and erasure. And whether we silence

your voice by restricting where you have access to. So for instance, we know that Dr. Walter Rodney could not make it to the Pan-African Congress because they would not let him go to speak. Whether we look at the university in Jamaica saying, hey, well, not the university, the university being contacted to get rid of him in West Indies. Yes, the West Indies. then

Adesoji Iginla (56:27.767)
Jamaica decides, okay, we're just going to make sure that he can't come back in. And then finally, when all of that could not silence him, let's just, let's just do away with his life. that, that, so when they can't silence you, they, burn your books, they, they restrict your airwaves. So like, minister Farrakhan here in the United States of America was banned from all social media because he supposedly had this fiery rhetoric or whatever. And yet,

this felon in chief, yes, initially was banned from Twitter and all of that, but then there were other airwaves still open to him, particularly Fox News and the rest of them, to allow this propaganda, this white nationalist propaganda to go on. But, know, white people are gonna white is what I'm going to say as haters are gonna hate. But there's something that,

really caught, really pulled my attention in this book where there's so many things. But where he talked about no conscious black man can be colorblind. So the idea of when you're talking about confusion and how confusion is an enemy of revolution, I think one of the ways they're confusing us is if I in any way fight for my rights as a black person, then I'm racist because I had spoken up about the oppression of my own people. And then you have your own people, people who look like you are like,

No, why just love everybody where one race is only one race. There's a human race. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. But I didn't create this race card. you go back to the invention of the races, so to speak, there's white people started that mess and there are real implications for our hue for our color. And so for me to all of a sudden want to act like

I'm so magnanimous, which is what has gotten people of African descent into trouble over and over again, that I'm going to ignore the reality of racism and claim I'm colorblind. So I just take everybody as a human. Really? And then they come in and then they blow you up. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that or that part of the book? I mean, it's, it's, it's pertinent to say.

Adesoji Iginla (58:49.037)
How do we get there to the point where you think you're colorblind? Marcus Gavi, who was recently pardoned, says in this book, Walter Rodney invokes him. says, Marcus Gavi always preached the value of Africa's history and culture. He wrote that for many years, white propagandists have been printing tons of literature to impress scattered Ethiopians. You can effectively call yourself that because that's what you were referred to.

especially that portion within their civilization with the idea that Africa is a despised place inhabited by savages and cannibals where no civilized human beings go. After dismissing that propaganda as completely false, Garvey continued, the power and the sway we once held passed away but now in the 20th century we're about to see a return of it in the rebuilding of Africa yet a new civilization, a new culture shall spring forth

from amongst our people. Well, obviously, we're in the midst of a struggle. Whether we like it or not, we've been thrown into one. The issue going back to what you are leading to in that is you can't play blind.

don't be the ostrich that you killed i mean you can't be the proverbial you can't be the proverbial ostrich that sticks their head in the sand saying if i can't see it then the problem can't see me that would be foolish that would be foolish so it's we are doing a lot of foolish things it's important that we do what we're doing right now sit in community and read

I mean, for starters, the grinding with my brothers. I think read and see the patterns because what he clearly addresses here is this elitism, this classism. And it's playing out right now here. Well, it's playing out everywhere. Okay. But just yesterday, you know, and, please, those of you who want to come for chaos and confusion, that is not what this is about, but we do need to be able to speak candidly with each other. There is,

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:00.779)
a businesswoman and influencer that I have followed and greatly appreciate Tabitha Brown. And she has created this empire, you know, books and seasonings and hair products and all of that. And finally, some of these big box stores have, you know, allowed her products to be prominently featured on their shelves. Well, some of these same big big box stores have now said.

no to DEI. We're rolling back all of our policies and so on and so forth. And rightfully so, Black people are coming together and saying, wait a second, what's going to be our response to this? And part of the conversation has been boycott. And then here she comes on her Facebook that I saw yesterday, might be on other platforms, but I saw it on Facebook. And she's basically making the case for, on the one hand, yes, you you guys do what you think you need to do. But on the other hand, some of us have worked really hard

to get our products on these shelves. If you boycott, it's gonna hurt our businesses and all of that. And as she was talking, having just reread grounded with my brothers, I'm like, wait a second. You are concerned about what's happening to a handful of you and we're proud of you for getting your products in these stores, but you want us to sacrifice the larger revolution so you can have products on their shelves, which brings me to something that Walter Rodney wrote where he said,

It's like, we just want to be dirty versions of white. What mess. my God. That a race without power and authority is a race without respect. How does someone kick you in the teeth and you're still saying, but please, I still just want the privilege of coming in to purchase from you, which is why once we had integration, all so many of our businesses were decimated. How about, listen, do, do an Isaac Hayes, the third do a crowdfunding and say, Hey y'all.

We need to have our own distribution mechanisms. Where did Amazon start? And now all of us purchase from Amazon. So how about we start somewhere and build our own instead of just saying, hey, black masses, I know y'all are catching more hell than me, but hey, I need to maintain my millennia, multi-millennia, whatever status. So please continue to support organizations, businesses that have clearly said that they don't give a damn about us. Four years ago, they were all for DEI. And then,

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:23.765)
with a twinkle of an eye, we are irrelevant anymore. But as long as we will not operate in power and authority, no one is ever going to respect us. Question is, can we respect ourselves? And going back to the theme, which you just said, doing for self, mean, there is a there's a part here at the end of Robbie Smalls, brother Robbie Smalls text, which is I can get it.

And it goes along the theme of something to the effect that you are the leader. Yeah, Walter Rodney, like other visionaries, was not paralyzed by fate nor by circumstances. Rodney was determined to unravel the contrivance of history and clarify the technicalities of entrapment, which is pointed to four years ago, they were OK with DEI. What happened? Hmm, interesting.

In leading by example, he sometimes risks security. Well, in this case, maybe this lady has to risk her comfort a bit. I mean, if they platform you, are you going to lose everything? Clearly not. People are telling her, create a website, we'll come get it from there. But she's talking about, well, it costs money to, you know, store things in a warehouse and all of that. So you don't want to have to sacrifice anything for this revolution, but then you'll benefit from it.

Please carry on. knew that class could not be dismantled, which is what you're alluding to. And he also sensed that the race could be consolidated and then transcended. Rodney had this sense from early in life, being equipped with a sense of time and timetable. He achieved much in his second run. Of course, none of this could have been attained without 18. Build 18.

All of this idea of I build it by myself is nonsensical. A great leader are always part of a squad.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:33.301)
Yes. And of course he goes on to talk about the fact that black intelligentsia, however you define that, if you feel you're part of that, must serve the black masses. He talks about the role that those of us descending from Africa who are in the diaspora, the role that we should be playing in the liberation of Africa, which liberates us all. And I think that with all of these divisions against this chaos of

Well, the boat dropped me off here or they carved out my country and called it this. Therefore, this is who I am that we're losing that bigger picture of the fact that the struggle is the same for black people wherever we go. Classism is definitely tearing apart that ability to come together as a unified group.

He talks specifically about, how does he put it? Black men, white carts. Yep, black men, carts. so many people who, so it's not just about do we have a black person in this position, but it's like, what is the composition of their heart? And he speaks to the fact that the violence that we see in many countries that are run by Africans with their police.

is just as, and the discrimination, if you want to call it that, against the people is just as horrendous and as barbaric, if not more so, than what we suffered under white colonial rule. it's because of how we see ourselves, the indoctrination, the brainwashing that he calls both a physical and mental dominance. And so I think at the core of what we need to do, which comes back to what

Dr. Patricia Rodney was sharing is we have to re-educate ourselves. You know, looking at the language that we use, looking at the words, when I'm talking to someone who thinks they're enlightened, then they'll say something like, you know, I was the black sheep of my family. And I have to like hold my face because I can be very expressive, like, okay. You literally are showing that on the inside, you do think black is less than.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:48.621)
And he speaks to the fact that what derails so many of our movements is the fact that some of us do not believe that there is anything black that is actually respectable. That if it's not a version of whiteness, it's not powerful. And in fact, I was trying to find the exact phrase that he used with that. Which he points to.

No, this is it. Cause I highlighted and then I circled it that some of us have no confidence in anything that is not white. And we have to look at this. We have to look, we, have to on a daily basis, just examine every part of what we do and how we speak. And then the other thing that really came out for me in this book is

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:47.201)
He kept talking about what we need now. He said, confidence in ourselves, conscious, united, independent, creative. We have to be conscious. We need to be united. We need to work towards our independence. We need to be creative in addressing our issues. And he said, above all, we must learn new skills. We must learn new skills. And I'm telling you, when I read that part, it was in the middle of the night and

I was just like, I'm going to read this book with my children. Because I reread this book last night. It's not a long book. And I'm like, I'm going to, because we do a thing for Kwanzaa every year. You know, that's when I have all the kids captive. But I might get them captive this summer. And I'm going to say, you know what? Every day, we're going to read 20 pages and discuss it. And in a week, we've read the whole book. That's how short this book is. But it's so chock full of so much.

Cause we've got to reverse this brainwashing. If we don't.

Chapter 5 of the book African History in the Service of Black Revolution, appropriately titled, the opening paragraph says, one of the major dilemmas inherent in the attempt by Black people to break through the cultural aspects of white imperialism is that posed by the use of historical knowledge as a weapon in our struggle. We virtually are forced into this infidious position.

of proving our humanity by citing historical unsympathetic and yet the evidence is often too submitted to white racists for sanctions. Why? Why are you justifying your own humanity to people who clearly have told you they don't care?

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:44.021)
Well, I'm hearing someone that we both know who would say because you love your master. But but actually what it is, what it is, is that brainwashing. of course, he go, he talks about that brainwashing even within religion. I'm about to step on somebody's foot, you know, ouch, I claim it. But we have to go, we have to talk about these things.

So he talks about the white symbols of Christian religion and that black people continue to administer the system that perpetuates the white values. even at the school that we're working with in Opovo, my goodness, I almost got myself thrown out of there because I'm looking at the list of books and the curriculum and, you know, how the school is set up. And I'm like, what is this Christian education here? Like, we're not a church. No history.

to Dr. Patricia Rodney's point, so many places, African nations and other places that are predominantly African, we have taken out our own history. When we do teach history, we teach about World War I and World War II from their perspective, not even our own history. But in this particular school, we didn't have history. We did not have any history, let alone African history, let alone Opobo history, but we had Christian education.

And when I questioned it, the looks on the collective looks on the faces of the staff, was like, there's a bomb about to go off and I'm gonna be the one going up in smoke. the way that that has been integrated, and of course, John Henry Clark talks about this, when you cannot see God in your own image, how can you ever really uplift yourself? And this is a problem.

There is a part still in the African history in the service of Black revolution where he says, to buttress the point you were making with regards to the displacement of African history in our curriculum, in Jamaica, a recent proposal to teach African history and an African language in the schools was turned down by, wait for it, a Black prime minister. The conclusion is clear.

Adesoji Iginla (01:13:08.823)
Jamaican freedom fighters would read some African history in the course of preparing for an engaging in hostilities, but the struggles will not wait until the re-education of the masses of the Black people reach an advanced stage. So which is saying, start where you are. Start where you are. You don't have to read the entire books behind a certain gentleman.

to wait a second. Are you going to ignore my, no, I'm just kidding. Well, that's, that's not even a bookshelf that looks like a book stand, but you know, so yeah. Okay. Listen, you're not going to insult me on this Beyonce internet. That's all or for some people, guess it'll be Al Gore's internet. I'm just messing with you, but so yeah. So, but still it's important.

It's important to start where we are. This is a book, not more than 111 pages. I've read this book since we decided to read it. I've read it five times. So I mean, if you look at the pages, has been massacred. I see. I, you know, it's, it's, it's kudos to

Dr. Rodney and the people who put the book together to see, I mean, the shoe, I would say not a page was wasted. Not a page. Not a page was wasted. that 111 pages, you struggle to flip a page and not find something useful. Let me share just a couple of things from the very last few pages of that book. It says, and I'm going to read.

History has an active cultural and political role. Because of its relationship to national and regional identity, we must ask ourself whose history gets told? Understanding that so much of what we're dealing with right now is a consequence of slavery and colonialism and neocolonialism. And when we don't make those connections, we can end up fighting each other. And then in the chapter that

Adesoji Iginla (01:15:32.779)
Randall Robinson wrote just a little bit of a summary where he was saying, we need empathy. Yep. You don't empathize with people if you don't talk with them and you don't understand them. And so again, those of us who you may not be in academia, but you are living in the suburbs, you're living in the nicer part of town and you have no idea what it's like to live on the other side of town. And you work in these places, but you don't talk to

the janitors or the less than, we need to change that because we can't have empathy without conversation. He talked about awareness and we can get into the need to study, the need to talk to our elders. And I would say with that, the need not to...

The desire, this is what Walter Rodney, when you look at him getting a PhD by the time he was 26. When you think of him, he could already speak Spanish, but he wanted to study the annals of colonialism for himself, not someone else's interpretation. So he went and learned Portuguese and there was another language that he learned so he could translate it himself. We need to also be about a certain level of excellence.

If you're going to call yourself, you know, whatever, you know, black academia or intellectual, whether you're a public intellectual or an intellectual in the university sector, there should be a level of excellence. And that's what this man was about. He took no shortcuts. He would go to the source, learn the language if he needed to. He made the time. He still had a family and he still spent time with his family. Because why? He wasn't at the senior club.

drinking and smoking for no good reason. Yes. Yes. I'm throwing that shade. Okay. But Robinson goes off, goes on to say, he says empathy awareness, respect for self respect for self. That just check yourself. Do you respect yourself? respect for others. And then the fifth one, constructive action.

Adesoji Iginla (01:17:52.375)
And so many of us are waiting for a savior. like Dr. Rodney, Patricia Rodney was saying, start where you are. Influence the people right where you are. It doesn't have to be on a grandiose scale. Nobody has to like sing your praises. Just start where you are. But take constructive action with the little knowledge that you do know, whatever it is that you know.

you work in a team with other people and that's definitely what I'm committed to as we fight these white nationalists all across the globe and as we fight the black men and women with white hearts because they're problem too yeah I mean again another person he invokes in this book is

Yes, exactly. And we see a whole raft of them playing themselves out in the American space. You've got your Byron Donalds, your Robin Sins and what have you in the United Kingdom. have, what's her name? Kevin Badenock.

This is a reminder that just simply because they look like you doesn't mean they are you. And yes, blacks are not a monolith. That's the phrase. But then what is the content of you? Are you again trying to be like a dirty version of white? His term, not mine.

Are you trying to be a dirty version of white? Because you're not comfortable with being yourself. You know, so for me, this book has been truly, revealing, informative.

Adesoji Iginla (01:19:58.765)
profound. And one thing I actually found in it, and I don't know if you did as well, was that every time I reread it, something else came up. Something else. Yes. It's almost as if the book is a living document. Something comes up. It's like, by the way, I you missed this part. You read it through the lens of whatever additional knowledge or lived experiences that you have, which is why it's so important for us to be in comfort.

conversation with one another. Patricia Rodney in her chapter, and she said it again today live, she said, grounding is a way of living. And the more we ground with one another, the more we have these conversations, you'll see something and I'm like, my God, I missed that. How did I, did I skim over that? What did I do? And so the conversations that we have as we're reading, it's not just about.

look how smart I am. at all the words I know. And I can quote someone to say, who are you in conversation with and how is it leading to constructive action? And when you look at how they describe the groundings that he had, they talked about, we would play cards and they ate, they broke bread, but they came back to the business. And I feel like so many of us now are just in the having fun phase.

you know, which is why, you know, there just a lot of social events I don't go to because I'm like, don't have time for that. I want to break bread. want to have fun. But I also want us to get to the business of how do we free ourselves so we can free our children? Because we've been handed a baton. And I think too many of us were kind of like the United States men's

100 meter team. I dropped it. I dropping the baton. By the we pass it, we're past the passing lane. And then we're disqualified. And we're back where we are in the United States right now because we didn't effectively pass the baton. I want to also, I want to, I mean, before we close, I want to also raise this. The issue of Black Power.

Adesoji Iginla (01:22:18.445)
He talked about it and he gave a basic understanding. So that we don't go out there and quote unquote, the bamboozled, run amok. I'll just read a part. it's chapter two, Black Power, a basic understanding. And he writes like this. He says, Black Power is a doctrine about Black people for Black people, preached by Black people. Say that again.

Black Power is a doctrine about Black people, for Black people, preached by Black people. I am putting it to my Black brothers and sisters that the color of our skin is the most fundamental thing about us. I could have chosen to talk about people of the same island, or the same religion, or the same class, but instead I have chosen skin color as essentially the most binding factors in our world.

In doing so, I am not saying that that is the way things ought to be. I'm simply recognizing the real world. That is the way things are. Under different circumstances, it would have been nice to be colorblind, to choose my friends slowly because their social interests coincides with mine. But no conscious black man can allow himself such luxury.

in the contemporary world.

That's the meaning of black power. As you read that, there was another part in that chapter where they talked about in talking about black power. They said it can be used destructively rather than construct constructively. So the issue isn't that we don't have power. In my opinion, it's how we wield that power.

Adesoji Iginla (01:24:18.179)
black woman stopped putting in and I know you guys are gonna come for me and you can and and I was there at one point I you put the extensions and so on and so forth and I have family members who do know but I'm telling you if we stopped using extensions worldwide and Whatever money we were going to spend on that extension. We put it in a pot

Can I tell you that we would have enough money to fund most of the industries that we we, we, we need, but that power, some people say, you know, black women should have the right to self-expression and all that. Yes, we do. Absolutely. But we're, what you're doing is actually helping to impoverish you. You might maybe think, rethink it. Now, if you don't like what I said, let's have a conversation. It's not a fight.

Let's have a conversation. But where this hair is not manufactured by us, the distribution is not through us. So in fact, even black beauty supply stores in the United States of America often cannot compete with the Asian owned beauty supply stores, even though we are the number one consumers. Exactly. That is something we need to say. What are we doing with our black power in that respect? When we look at the minerals in Africa and you have

Black leaders with white hearts who will sign off, I mean, on any level, this doesn't make sense. My five-year-old niece would make a better decision. You're gonna sign over 80 % of ownership to someone outside and keep 20%. Like, make that make sense. That is Black power used destructively. When we talk about...

the violence in America.

Adesoji Iginla (01:26:16.001)
I don't quite frankly cannot recall and someone correct me in the chat. Any instance where quote unquote and I'm using air quotes, gang bangers have gone and avenged racism on the part of white people too or black people. But we will use those guns to kill each other. We will avenge each other.

This gang killed my brother, so I'm going take three of them out. The white folk will come in, take us out, disrespect our mamas, all of that. And we never turned that power in that direction to use it constructively for us. I'm not advocating violence. And at the same time, I'm saying we live in a violent society and we have the right to not just self-defense, maybe a little bit more. And so.

This Black power term, how do we use it constructively? Because we're certainly using it destructively. And I see it in groups and gatherings where someone stands up and under the guise of, you know, Black power and whatever, they tear another leader down. They tear another person down. They try to sway the minds of people against, and it's just ego. Ego has ripped apart so many of our organizations. That's another place where

power is used destructively rather than constructively. So that's just something that I'm thinking about. And, and, and cause you you point a finger, they always put it pointing back at you. And I'm examining myself in my education and my indoctrination and saying, how am I being constructive in our liberation as opposed to even subconsciously being destructive? I mean, as we go out, we,

end at half the hour. I'd just like us to mull over this. Chapter four, African history and culture. Brother Rodney writes, every human society has a history and a form of culture, and this includes Africa. Africans in the West have been deliberately kept ignorant of Africa's achievements by white men for centuries. The purpose of their policy was to build a picture of a barbarous Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (01:28:42.541)
so that Africans who have been removed from our homes and made into slaves would be afraid to admit to even themselves that we are Africans. In the West Indies, names like Bongo and Kwasi, which refer to Africans are names that most Africans hate. And our knowledge of Africa is got from reading Tarzan comic books. Who called us a nation of children? Marcus Garvey.

The only the only little slight change I will make to what Dr. Rodney wrote that I that if I would dare to add anything is that indoctrination didn't just happen in the West because Africans on the continent are double-inducted. Yes. but we have a culture that we're living in. Yes. You understand the food stuff, so on and so forth. You mean, but actually even some of the food stuff we don't understand.

Cause if I tell the average Nigerian that stockfish is not from Nigeria, they might fight me, but it's actually important from Norway. we, have claimed stockfish more than the Norwegians who actually are making money hand over fist because stockfish is not, what's the English term is a cod fish. Yeah, it's dry caught, dry caught. Okay. The whole market is Africa for cod fish.

If you try to buy codfish in America, you're buying it from a store that caters to Africans. They have a whole industry that's just us and that we've claimed as a culture even though it isn't. But the major point I wanted to make is that it's not just the indoctrination and the misinformation and not learning our history in the West, which has allowed Africans in the diaspora to look at Africa negatively. The crazy thing is that brainwashing also happened on the continent because

after our so-called independence, we did not change anything about the colonial education system. We left it in place. We propped it up. And as a matter of fact, there was more African or Nigerian history being taught 30, 40 years ago than there is today. So we've actually kind of gone backwards even with that. So that indoctrination has been worldwide. And so you have Africans on the continent who detest themselves. Wow.

Adesoji Iginla (01:30:59.843)
And, so on that very happy note, happy note, we got work to do. Yeah, we've got what to do. part of the work we've got to do is the next book we're actually going to be reading is the last, Sunday of the next month is. Okay. I'm looking at my copy right now. I haven't read that book in years. it's a Kwa-Meo-Nkrumah Neo-Colonialism, the last stage of imperialism. We have a special guest lined up. hopefully we'll get,

his acquits his agreement and we shall be in. So that will be the last Sunday of February. So market calendar promises also to be very informative. But first and foremost, I just like to express my gratitude to Dr. Patricia Rodney for coming through as such a short notice. Brother Milton also had prior engagement, but he had to

popping today and Sister Aya has been kind enough to, you know, go to do a proper groundings based on the book, The Groundings with My Brothers, again by Walter Rodney. It's 111 pages, first published in 1969, subsequently now published by Vessel Books, is available on Vessel Books, amongst all other books. Whoa, yeah, actually, I should do that.

Walter Rodney did not just publish, I mean, the most important one was How Europe Underdeveloped Africa, which is a classic. He posthumously, Decolonial Marxism was published. The foreword of this is written by Nguguwef Tiong'o, a brilliant book, actually. Yeah. And this says the Russian Revolution.

look at the Russian Revolution. Yeah, you should. You should. You should. You should. More importantly, our children's books. Yes. Now I have those ones. All right. All right. right. right. Yeah. I met Dr. Patricia Rodney in London in September 2023. I was privy enough to see the next day.

Adesoji Iginla (01:33:25.475)
in groundings with her and Selma James. That's the wife of CLR James. So imagine my lucky self, sitting in the same room with the widows of the man who wrote How Europe Underdeveloped Africa and The Black Jacobins. I was like, you know what, that was, yeah. So the children's books. fanboying? Were you fanboying? I was just, I was just.

The children book, the first one is Kofi Badoo Out of Africa, again by Walter Rodney. It's a brilliant, brilliant book, brilliant book, brilliant book. And then the last but not the least is Lashmi Out of India, also by Walter Rodney. So basically it's chronicling the history of Ghana for kids, but it's the history of the Caribbean for kids.

So those two. So yeah. So again, thank you for coming through. what can I say? It's been a brilliant discussion. Hopefully you guys listening would get more out of this. Yes, speaking of listening, you can download this audio version on all your major podcast platforms.

from tomorrow morning. Yeah. See Monday. Yeah. Monday. Yeah. So Monday's the 27th. So, and, just to hit the subscription button if you haven't, yes, yes, yes. Other media because one or one of the very inexpensive, it doesn't cost you anything to share is to get this kind of information out to more people. Cause we often share stuff, you know, people dancing cats, you know, wearing makeup, whatever.

Things that yes, laughter is good for the spirit. Yes, but we need to also share things like this. yes, do all the yeah, do all the good stuff. Share, share, like, share, subscribe. Can I give a shout out to someone else? Yeah, go on. What a man, Maya. He's doing some talking about understanding more about Africa. He's doing an incredible job going through different parts of Africa, different countries.

Adesoji Iginla (01:35:51.307)
and really highlighting these countries. And he does it in a very entertaining way. So for people who don't want to read but still want to get some knowledge. And he just dropped his latest video on Lesotho. OK. And so he's beautiful. very beautiful. He did a fantastic job. I learned so much that I'm like, I got to add that to my list of places to go. So please support the brother and what he's doing as well. Yes, Brother Woodamaya and the Real African Diary.

Real African Diary, Tuna Chaki, just to name a few, but those three, please give them a follow and you'll be informed as well. But more importantly, read the books, read the books as well. Read the books. Yes. And yes, Sister Aya, thank you again for coming through. Thank you. And from me, it's...

Good night for now and God bless. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:36:55.86)
Yes, that was fantastic. That was fun. Man.