EP 5 Robert Sobukwe - An African Legacy I African News Review 🌍

In this episode of African News Review, host Adesoji Iginla and journalist Milton Allimadi delve into the life and legacy of Robert Sobukwe, a prominent anti-apartheid leader. 

They discuss Sobukwe's and what led to the Sharpeville Massacre, the impact of this event on the African continent and the international community, and the reasons behind Sobukwe's relative obscurity in the history of South African liberation. 

The conversation also touches on the ongoing relevance of Sobukwe's vision for Africa in the context of contemporary global politics. In this conversation, Adesoji Iginla and Milton Allimadi explore the historical and contemporary dynamics of Africa's geopolitical landscape, emphasising the shift from ideological struggles to resource extraction. 

They discuss the legacy of colonialism, the importance of African unity, and the need for knowledgeable leadership to navigate current global challenges. The conversation reflects on historical speeches and their relevance today, while also addressing the potential of a united Africa in shaping its future.

Takeaways

*Robert Sobukwe was a key figure in the anti-apartheid movement.
*The Sharpeville Massacre was a pivotal moment in South African history.
*International reactions to the Sharpeville Massacre were mixed, with the US supporting the apartheid regime.
*Sobukwe's vision of a United States of Africa was radical and threatening to the establishment.
*The legacy of Sobukwe is often overshadowed by more prominent figures like Nelson Mandela.
*The US and UK played significant roles in propping up the apartheid regime.
*Sobukwe's ideas about African unity and socialism remain relevant today.
*The media representation of African leaders has historically been biased.
*The Cold War dynamics influenced African politics significantly.
*The exploitation of Africa's resources continues to be a global issue. 
*The geopolitical contest has shifted from ideology to resource extraction.
*Colonial legacies continue to impact African nations today.
*African unity is crucial for addressing contemporary challenges.
*Historical speeches remain relevant in today's context.
*The current geopolitical landscape is influenced by past dynamics.
*Africa's position in global politics is complex and multifaceted.
*A united Africa could leverage its resources for greater power.
*External forces have historically influenced African liberation movements.
*Knowledgeable leadership is essential for Africa's progress.
*Africa has a significant role in global solutions and sustainability.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction to African News Review and Robert Sobukwe
02:50 Who is Robert Sobukwe?
06:27 The Significance of the Sharpeville Massacre
11:30 Impact of the Sharpeville Massacre on Africa and the UN
17:21 International Reactions: US, UK, and the UN
23:38 The Legacy of Robert Sobukwe
32:21 Sobukwe's Vision for Africa and Its Relevance Today
36:41 The Shift from Ideology to Resource Extraction
39:54 The Legacy of Colonialism and Neocolonialism
41:42 The Importance of African Unity
43:06 Reflections on Historical Speeches
45:02 The Current Geopolitical Landscape
48:07 Africa's Position in Global Politics
51:59 The Potential of a United Africa
54:15 The Role of External Forces in Liberation Movements
58:22 The Meaning of Independence in Africa
01:01:24 The Need for Knowledgeable Leadership
01:05:40 Africa's Role in Global Solutions

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.74)
Yes, greetings, greetings. Welcome again to African News Review, our weekly conversation in which we take a look at the coverage of Africa in the Western media and deconstruct the stories. This week we are taking a different route and to explain why the focus of this episode is not given in the history books. I speak to the person of Robert Sobukwe, but before we get into that, I have to

Do the usual. I'm your host, Adesuji Ginla. And with me as usual is here to share his wealth of knowledge and experience as a journalist, publisher of Black Star News on wbi.org, 99.5 FM New York radio. His book, How Africa was Demonized in the Western Media, you know, inspired this program. And I speak to no

other person than comrade Milton Alimadi. Welcome again, brother.

Milton Allimadi (01:04.323)
Asante sana. Thank you.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05.998)
Yes, but before we go deeper, I'm also have to express an appreciation so far. We're almost there. We thought we had a thousand, but we are on 999 subscribers. repeat 9999, 999 subscribers. So

Milton Allimadi (01:22.498)
Wow.

Milton Allimadi (01:27.322)
So you're going to have some blessings today. I think you should definitely recognize the number 1000, should be a special guest in a future show.

Adesoji Iginla (01:36.11)
Yes. I mean, again, even reaching that 999 is a milestone that we could not possibly done without the number one up to 999. this, yes. And this, it shows the trust, the understanding, the belief in what we are doing.

Milton Allimadi (01:50.532)
Absolutely. In fact, the first subscriber should be a guest.

Adesoji Iginla (02:03.276)
because for long the story about Africa has been framed around us. We have not had a seated table. So now this is our own retort to what is said about us. And once again, I show deepest appreciation to brother Milton who has been here, know, giving us, you know, the scoop as it were and understanding that sometimes the story is not what they seem.

you know, given the historical background. So which brings me now to today's topic, Robert Sabukwe. Who is Robert Sabukwe? Could you first of all introduce him to the audience? Who is Robert Sabukwe?

Milton Allimadi (02:50.924)
Okay, Robert Semuqua, of course he's best identified with being the main organizer of the protest march to denounce the past books system, which is the internal passport and ID that every black person had to carry. Every African had to carry in South Africa. And it basically had their basic information.

Adesoji Iginla (03:04.738)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (03:11.022)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (03:21.409)
But most important aspect was their labor status because it was meant to document all available labor in South Africa. And that's why they were forced to carry that humiliating passbook that basically identified them at all and made them actually feel like non-human beings, like commodities, which exactly what they were. There were inputs.

Adesoji Iginla (03:25.635)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (03:45.731)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (03:49.416)
into the production system, the economic system, seen merely as providers of labor and not as human beings. Widely detested that passport. So in South Africa, Robert Zubukwe, one of the prominent anti-apartheid leaders, a nationalist, a Pan-Africanist, who believed in a United States of Africa, by the way. So he organized that protest.

Adesoji Iginla (03:57.024)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (04:18.022)
that resulted in the Shockville massacre in 1960. Robert Sububwe was advocating that the party leading the anti-apartheid struggle had to be a party of Africans. So he grouped the populations into groupings in South Africa. He said we had national groupings, but in essence, all of us

Adesoji Iginla (04:20.782)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (04:33.358)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (04:36.835)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (04:47.023)
human beings. don't recognize white, we don't recognize black, we essentially recognize that we are part of the human family. And if that is the case, we cannot have a system of apartheid or even multiracialism since there's only essentially one race. And that's what he advocated. And of course, he was seen, unlike the other anti-apartheid leaders, including Nassar Mandela,

He was seen with a bit much more fear by the establishment and by the people fighting the establishment, because this was a party that he said should be led by Africans. And if anybody wanted to identify with Africans and accepted an African majority, then they too would be welcome to that party as Africans. And that's what set him apart.

Adesoji Iginla (05:16.142)
and

Adesoji Iginla (05:29.613)
I forget.

Milton Allimadi (05:44.807)
from the other anti-apartheid leaders. And I think that is also one of the main reasons why he was not embraced globally in the same manner in which Nelson Mandela was embraced. And that is why not as many people that should know about him actually know about Robert Subufred.

Adesoji Iginla (05:57.353)
Mandela was.

Adesoji Iginla (06:07.68)
Okay, that said, so now you've provided context for that often quoted phrase of his, Africa for Africans. One other thing would be, why was the state so afraid of him in spite of the fact that he never advocated for violence?

Milton Allimadi (06:16.85)
All right.

Milton Allimadi (06:27.731)
Okay, okay, that's a very good question. I think number one, because it would involve not only the end of apartheid, but actually the end of the South African state as it was known at that time. Because remember, he was very serious about the United States of Africa in his inaugural speech for the Pan-Africanist Congress in

Adesoji Iginla (06:49.198)
Let's get, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (06:57.234)
1955, I believe it was, was it 1955 or 59? Okay, 59. On April of the fourth, he identified with Kwame Nkrumah. And he said every African nation should use all their energy for the creation of the United States of Africa. He said the days of small weak countries

Adesoji Iginla (06:59.79)
59, 59.

Adesoji Iginla (07:11.906)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (07:27.224)
are over. And he gave the example of the United States of America, and he gave the example of the Soviet Union and the Soviet bloc countries that were also coming together. He said, in order for Africans to exist in this new world and to thrive in this new world, they too needed to form a United States of Africa. So here you have somebody telling the white minority

Adesoji Iginla (07:28.494)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (07:56.195)
apartheid regime that not only do we plan to end racial discrimination and minority rule, but we want to make our South Africa a part of the African nation, not just the African continent. And that is extremely why he was extremely feared by the establishment.

Adesoji Iginla (08:01.55)
I'll pass it.

Adesoji Iginla (08:05.303)
Thank

Adesoji Iginla (08:15.008)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (08:24.042)
Okay, you made mention of the Sharpville massacre. Can you give us a sense of what led to the massacre itself?

Milton Allimadi (08:35.556)
Well, I think that the police commanders, the white police commanders who ultimately unleashed the killing, and to this day, the precise number is not really known, seen ranging from 90 to 150 people killed. This was the first time that Africans

Adesoji Iginla (08:43.629)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (08:56.13)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (09:05.188)
boldly confronted the establishment.

Adesoji Iginla (09:08.396)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (09:09.73)
It was not one of those demonstrations where the police come and then disperse and people run the fire tear gas and then it's dispersed.

They brought the protests to the police station.

at Charlfield. Thousands of Africans showed up and they said we're here to be arrested because we are not carrying our passbooks with us and under the law at that time you're obligated to arrest them.

So why were they killed? They were not really killed because they were not carrying their passport. But they were killed because they dare not run away from the system this time. You know, the system had never been confronted like that. You know, the audacity, right? The uppity-ness of these Africans telling you that I'm standing up against you.

Adesoji Iginla (09:57.206)
You

Adesoji Iginla (10:03.374)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (10:13.816)
for myself.

Milton Allimadi (10:15.724)
In other words, there's nothing special about you. I don't have any fear of you. And that is why I'm presenting myself to be arrested. Number one. Number two.

Adesoji Iginla (10:18.798)
Hmm.

you.

Milton Allimadi (10:30.05)
They could not all be arrested in their thousands. And ultimately, the system had not confronted its inner, deeper most fears until that moment, confronted by Africans who are saying they're not going to run away. So I think a good reason, the main reason perhaps why they were killed was out of fear.

Adesoji Iginla (10:50.19)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (10:58.816)
Because if thousands of Africans can confront you in such a manner, this is a country where the Africans make the majority of the population. What if all of them decided one day to confront you in that manner? Of course, that would have been the end of apartheid. And that's what they were fearing. And that's why they unleashed live bullets and just mowed down people as they fled.

Adesoji Iginla (11:16.33)
system will implode. True?

Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (11:30.346)
Now, what was the impact of the Shaftville massacre on the African continent and at that time the United Nations?

Milton Allimadi (11:42.524)
of course, outrage, outrage. But at the same time, it just tells you.

Adesoji Iginla (11:46.338)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (11:52.725)
tells you the value of African lives, of black lives. Because we're talking 1960, formal apartheid did not end until 34 years later when Mandela was elected president of South Africa. But at the same time, it also tells you a second thing.

Adesoji Iginla (12:10.434)
Later.

Milton Allimadi (12:21.237)
that have they not confronted the system in such a manner? Who knows? We might still be talking about apartheid, formal apartheid still existing today. Because what that did was it galvanized support, which already existed on the African continent for African countries to do.

Adesoji Iginla (12:31.0)
But they're

Milton Allimadi (12:50.73)
everything within their powers. Even these small countries and part of course their weaknesses because the small countries which was the design of the colonial powers which I would do if I were a colonial power because it makes it easy to divide and rule. But all these countries, the ones that started winning their independence in the 1960s,

Adesoji Iginla (12:53.571)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (13:03.596)
No, no. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (13:10.358)
and conquer. Yep, yep.

Milton Allimadi (13:20.01)
Because obviously when he made the speech, essentially Ghana was still the only one that had won independence in 1932. But all these countries started thinking independence, South Africa, independence, South Africa, independence of Africa. I lived in Tanzania as a teenager.

Adesoji Iginla (13:26.222)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much. very much. yeah, very much

Well, there.

Milton Allimadi (13:47.705)
Every day I read about South Africa. Every day I read the term white minority regime. I read the term illegitimate regime. I read the call for sanctions. I read about Mandela Nelson about winning. And I read about the ANC and the national liberation struggle. And much of that of course was sparked.

Adesoji Iginla (13:55.18)
No retool rule. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (14:18.217)
beginning with the Apatani, the Sharpeville massacre. And then of course, many more lives lost in the many years ahead. You know, we had the Soweto massacre, equal number and even exceeding of young Africans who were executed and then the ones killed extrajudicially like Steve Biko,

Adesoji Iginla (14:22.744)
Shavv and Masako, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (14:32.878)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (14:47.483)
was murdered just by pounding his head with a hammer essentially. Many were thrown out of the windows in these police cells and supposedly they were always jumping out of the windows for some reason. So the struggle, much more struggle was still ahead after the Sharpville massacre.

Adesoji Iginla (15:05.922)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (15:15.868)
But in addition to galvanizing on the African continent, it also galvanized globally and it made South Africa pariah internationally. That's when you started getting all these boycotts of South African products. South Africa eventually could not compete in Olympic games, just this pariah thing. And people are like, okay, you can't compete in the Olympic games or commonwealth.

Adesoji Iginla (15:25.134)
state.

Adesoji Iginla (15:30.079)
Yep.

Milton Allimadi (15:46.248)
You know, why is that a major thing? It's a major thing because people start looking into the reasons why you're being suspended from participation in these international events and organs. And then ultimately more people start getting involved in the global anti-apartheid struggle. You know, here in the United States, as you know, later on, they started having the campus protest.

Divestment campaigns demanding that college campuses divest from South Africa, remove their resources, do not do business with companies that are dealing with apartheid Africa. So it was the major spark that started galvanizing global repudiation of apartheid. It still lasted too long, but it was an important landmark.

Adesoji Iginla (16:22.675)
diverse from South Africans. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (16:31.118)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (16:36.536)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (16:45.271)
in sparking the global protests.

Adesoji Iginla (16:48.75)
Okay, that was the case, what was the...

What was the... I mean, okay, so I get a sense of what the African reaction was. I'm more looking at what the powers, when I mean the powers of the United States and the United Kingdom vis-a-vis the Soviet Union on the floor of the United Nations. What was their interaction like following the Shabdia massacre? Because... Go on.

Milton Allimadi (17:21.144)
Well, the US was the main protector of South Africa through the years. And it was because of the United States that South Africa was not expelled from the United Nations when there were calls for the expulsion very soon, immediately rather, after that massacre. And the US was already essentially shaping

Adesoji Iginla (17:30.062)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (17:46.798)
Massacre,

Milton Allimadi (17:51.649)
what later on Ronald Reagan, as you recall, famously referred to as constructive engagement. It's very interesting. Constructive engagement, you're willing to entertain that with the white racist minority regime in South Africa, but you are not preaching constructive engagement when you were talking about the Soviet Union.

Adesoji Iginla (18:00.394)
J'met.

Adesoji Iginla (18:20.482)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (18:21.31)
an actual global nuclear power with whom you have ideological differences and with whom both of you have the capability of destroying the entire world. That should have been the priority for constructive engagement. But here you are talking about the need to do that. That term was not yet in existence, but that practice was in existence, going back way all the way to the

Adesoji Iginla (18:28.045)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (18:33.996)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (18:45.236)
Resistance,

Milton Allimadi (18:48.514)
you know, whether you had Eisenhower, whether you had Kennedy, and throughout that period of engagement with South Africa. The US, as you know, was a major investor in the mining industry in South Africa. The US, at that time, I think, one of the biggest banks in the world, still one of the biggest today, was Chase Bank.

I think it was still called Chase Manhattan. And that was one of the major international banks in South Africa as well. So initially after Sharpsville, the South African economy actually almost collapsed. And it had to be bailed out essentially by the United States and the United Kingdom with major infusements of investment capital. The stock market,

Adesoji Iginla (19:19.779)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (19:38.188)
Milton Allimadi (19:46.632)
lost so many, so much shares that had there not been that intervention, the stock market in South Africa would have collapsed and with it the South African economy. But South Africa's mineral resources was too vital for the economy of these Western countries, including the United States and the UK. And it's for that reason that given the choice of siding with the South African people,

Adesoji Iginla (19:52.568)
The entire system would have.

Milton Allimadi (20:16.595)
against apartheid. The choice was very easy for international capital. The choice was siding with apartheid.

Adesoji Iginla (20:26.04)
So we're saying the demonization of human beings was a small price to pay in relation to profit.

Milton Allimadi (20:34.176)
Absolutely, that's the way it's always been. That's the way it currently is. And we see the current manifestation right here in the United States. Think about it. Just look at the last election right here in the United States.

Adesoji Iginla (20:46.243)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (20:48.405)
Where...

fear won the election from somebody who is a convicted felon, somebody who is the most unqualified to be president of the United States, but it was very simple. He had a very simple pitch. I'm keeping the barbarians at bay. I'm building a wall. I'm building a wall to protect our borders.

from the heathens coming across the border. And that trumped everything else. That trumped even now, he got the majority support from white women voters, even with the fact that he took credit and tried for returning Roe v. Wade, which of course was very essential.

Adesoji Iginla (21:42.07)
overturning their rights to view idea.

Milton Allimadi (21:49.034)
for women's reproductive rights and his whole conduct toward women generally with the multiple allegations of sexual assault and the meaning statements he has made about women. But all that did not matter when he spoke. Their truth to power and their truth to power is that it's us

Adesoji Iginla (21:51.598)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (22:18.193)
against the others and the others are the non-Europeans coming across the border. The others are the non-Europeans in South Africa and you saw with your own eyes how they trapped us in that police headquarters. Can you imagine magnifying that? But the millions of them in South Africa and in Africa generally. So it became about kids and kin.

Adesoji Iginla (22:43.213)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (22:48.115)
you know, it's us against them. And plus, with the added advantage of capital as well, and profit. So you combine this in a toxic brew. And that is why South Africa managed to hold on to apartheid for 34 more years after the Sharpeville massacre.

Adesoji Iginla (22:50.926)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (23:11.022)
OK, so one other question would be, why is it that not much is really heard about Robert Sobukwe in the pantheon of South African liberation fighters? Why? I mean, his case is particular. You could count on the fingers of one hand how many people have heard that name outside of South Africa. Why is that the case?

Milton Allimadi (23:38.689)
because he was, remember, he was banned. After the Shropville, he was tried and convicted. I believe the initial sentence was for three years, but then they came up with a special, they passed special legislation in Parliament just for him. The Subukhwe rules. So I think it was the Minister of Internal Affairs who made the determination.

Adesoji Iginla (23:41.666)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (23:51.512)
Yeah, correct.

Adesoji Iginla (23:57.506)
For just for him, yeah. For him, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (24:06.19)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (24:08.079)
at the end of each year whether that special law needed to be invoked, in which case he could be detained for another year. He could be detained in perpetuating essential. So they passed that law. And of course, the condition for his release to him, they made it clear that all he had to do was to renounce the anti-apartheid struggle.

And to him, of course, that would be like committing suicide. What would be the purpose to continue living if you renounce the anti-apartheid struggle as a condition of your release? And of course, he was not willing to do that. And he was detained for several more years after that. And then even after he was released, he was released under house arrest. And he was not allowed to be

Adesoji Iginla (24:38.54)
Hahaha

Adesoji Iginla (24:42.914)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (24:57.134)
in Kimberley. was about.

Milton Allimadi (25:04.92)
quoted. Just think about that. was not allowed to be mentioned in any conversation. He was not allowed to be quoted. Any of his writings were not allowed to be mentioned, discussed in South Africa. He was not allowed to meet with more than one person at a time. So in other words, he was killed, literally. He was killed and his memory was also killed, even though he was still alive for several more years.

Adesoji Iginla (25:17.133)
Wow.

Milton Allimadi (25:33.178)
So that was one of the reasons why. And then he had not been able to form the kind of network that the African National Congress had formed initially throughout Africa and then around the world as well. So that network, of course, is what ultimately made the African National Congress, the ANC, much more well-known.

And then of course, the fact that Mandela, who had been incarcerated, had a person like Winnie, Winnie Mandela, protesting his years of detention, organizing press conferences, organizing protests, being seen in physical clashes with the racist police forces in South Africa, being arrested herself multiple times.

Adesoji Iginla (26:09.294)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (26:29.22)
And also, you know how media actually works. The fact that Winnie was articulate and very attractive as well, started getting Goldberg attention. Why do you have this woman who looks like she could be a supermodel? You know, fighting physically with these brute police forces that always made for an interesting front page around the world. And ultimately the legend of Nelson Mandela was created and kept growing.

Adesoji Iginla (26:44.26)
Just...

Adesoji Iginla (26:52.12)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (26:59.128)
And that was the difference between what happened to Subukwit and what happened with Mandela's case.

Adesoji Iginla (26:59.532)
Mm. Amen.

Adesoji Iginla (27:07.982)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (27:10.604)
That's one aspect. And the other aspect, as I said earlier, was that what he represented was much more challenging to the establishment. He was very explicit in his goals. First, the party should be led by Africans. And then in his inaugural speech in 1959 for the Pan-Africanist Congress, he also said, our economic, political philosophy,

is a democratic socialist Africa. And of course, once you take that as your official position, then you're declaring liberation from capital, from monopoly capital. And of course, did not like as well.

Adesoji Iginla (27:56.76)
Hmm. Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (28:02.572)
Okay, I know there are two books out on Sobukwe. Unfortunately, like you said, he couldn't actually put his words to paper, but books were written about him. One is, for those who might want to get it, Lie on Your Wounds is one that is a compilation of prison letters to and fro from Robert Sobukwe.

The other is one written by a South African journalist at the time working for Rand Daily Mail, Benjamin Pogrand. And the title of that one is How Can Man Die Better? That one is a bit problematic. And the reason why I say it's a bit problematic is the guy, the writer, the author of that book, Benjamin Pogrand, initially migrated to the United Kingdom. Now he's based in

Milton Allimadi (28:45.985)
growing.

Adesoji Iginla (29:03.854)
Jerusalem, Israel. And a couple of years ago, the idea of the Israeli states being, you know, showing traits of apartheid was put to him, and he was vehemently against that idea. Why do think that is the case?

Milton Allimadi (29:25.384)
What is the case? That he lives in...

Adesoji Iginla (29:26.99)
The case that he rejected the idea of Israel being an apartheid state.

Milton Allimadi (29:34.803)
Well, I think that is a deep question, really, because I mean, I have friends whom I've known for years. And when it comes to the issue of Israel, I mean, I have a classmate from Columbia journalism, you know, he's Jewish. And he was explaining to me sometime in the midst of the what's ongoing right now in Gaza.

Adesoji Iginla (29:42.734)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (30:03.842)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (30:04.159)
You know, the massacre, the genocidal attacks against the Palestinian civilians by the Israeli Air Forces, know, women, children, elderly being the primary victims of this onslaught, this ongoing onslaught. And he explained to me, he said,

Adesoji Iginla (30:17.015)
and

Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (30:25.887)
He has relatives that even he cannot have conversations with when it comes to the issue of Israel. And of course, he explained that it goes to the connection with the whole history of the Nazi Holocaust in Germany. That has such a strong hold on the psyche that

Adesoji Iginla (30:32.247)
Hmm.

issue of Israel.

Adesoji Iginla (30:47.736)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (30:55.164)
the, even his own relatives who under other circumstances are willing to debate any and every issue. Right. But when it comes to that particular issue, when it concerning Israel, Israel can do no wrong and or discussion. You know, there's somebody that I went to journalism school with many years ago explaining this to me just

Adesoji Iginla (31:05.503)
But.

Adesoji Iginla (31:11.011)
Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (31:25.299)
just a few months ago explaining this to me. So maybe that factor is also playing a role in this journalist perspective when it comes to that. And so now you see that contradiction, but he's willing to, you know, he befriended Subukwe, and because of their, sorry,

Adesoji Iginla (31:27.234)
Mm. Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (31:38.764)
Okay, okay, okay.

Adesoji Iginla (31:44.814)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (31:50.734)
Yeah, knowing his position. Knowing his position on the issue of apathetic.

Milton Allimadi (31:56.706)
Absolutely. And he lived in apartheid, Africa and so on. Apartheid, you know, South Africa. So maybe that is the similar explanation to the one that I was given by this person that I went to during the school year.

Adesoji Iginla (32:03.625)
was about.

Adesoji Iginla (32:12.158)
Mm. Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (32:18.798)
Well, I mean, the reason I bring that up is...

So Bukui was a visionary.

Milton Allimadi (32:30.118)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (32:31.246)
he sort of articulates ideas in terms of how he sees Africa's place in the world. In the speech, which we'll pick some excerpts out of and then we'll sort of give it a present-day context, you will see similarities of what he was talking about in the 60s that now play out right now. I mean, even without going into it,

Milton Allimadi (32:58.009)
Absolutely.

Adesoji Iginla (33:01.432)
There is the issue of East, West, and Africa in between being wooed back and forth. Before we go into what would you deduce from then and now? Just, I mean, just drawing parallels and correlation.

Milton Allimadi (33:08.474)
Yes.

Milton Allimadi (33:21.969)
I go even now much further than that. I go to Rodney's prices in the periphery lecture, which is on YouTube, prices in the periphery of the global system, Africa and the Caribbean. And he says for the longest time, at least since the 500 years ago,

Adesoji Iginla (33:25.794)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (33:35.15)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (33:39.124)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (33:52.503)
Africa was situated.

Milton Allimadi (33:57.845)
as a location to be exploited, right? To extract labor, and that's of course the era of enslavement. And then when the contradictions could no longer sustain formal plantation slavery, when formal plantation slavery was now a hindrance to the expansion of capital,

Adesoji Iginla (34:03.224)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (34:19.789)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (34:27.46)
then you transition to colonialism, where now you have the best of all worlds. You have semi-enslaved labor, you have raw materials for your factories, and you have consumers in the terms of the population of those places that you colonize to be consumers. So this system was set up a very long time ago, and that aspect of that system.

Adesoji Iginla (34:30.798)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (34:46.336)
Hmm. Yep.

Milton Allimadi (34:57.124)
has not changed. That's been with us 500 years and exists with us today. Then of course you had other places in the world where capital did not take as solid grounding as it did in England. You had intellectuals visioning a different type of world and then you had the Soviet, the Russian revolution.

Adesoji Iginla (35:02.37)
now. Okay.

Milton Allimadi (35:25.791)
and you have the creation of the Soviet Union. And for a while, in addition to China, presented the prospects to many people around the world as the antidote to the global Western monopoly finance capital. So there emerged these, you could say, two hostile camps.

Adesoji Iginla (35:46.542)
Had you yeah

Milton Allimadi (35:56.166)
And Africa just relinquishing formal colonial rule at the time that Subukri is speaking in 1959. It's become evident that following Ghana's independence in 1957, all these countries were also being lined up to start getting a formal independence. So the Cold War was now being protected on Africa, transported to Africa.

And he says in his speech that there's competition now from the West and the East. They're wooing us, trying to seduce us like, you know, this beautiful lady and everybody both sides are contesting for Africa. So what you say is actually right, because we see that same contest being played out today by the West.

Adesoji Iginla (36:30.926)
You

Adesoji Iginla (36:39.918)
You

Adesoji Iginla (36:51.086)
playing out just exactly

Milton Allimadi (36:55.685)
and what is now Russia, not the Soviet Union, as well as China. And the irony is that now the contest is not so much ideological, but it's over resource extraction. In the 1960s, it was different. Russia, the Soviet Union, China, at the time, were not really primarily seeking

Adesoji Iginla (36:57.866)
Hmm. China. Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (37:12.878)
assist.

Milton Allimadi (37:25.718)
primary resources and minerals from Africa. You see, they wanted to maximize the number of friends they had. And obviously they took the side of Africa in the liberation struggle. And they were investing on the prospects that because of supporting Africa as they were fighting European colonial rule, Africans would be

Adesoji Iginla (37:25.966)
access to resources. was.

Adesoji Iginla (37:35.394)
They have, yep.

Adesoji Iginla (37:41.187)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (37:55.648)
much more willing to embrace them ideologically as well. And as you know, many African leaders professed non-alignment, but that was enough for them as well, because they thought non-alignment, at least you're not openly embracing the West. And once you officially embrace the West, the presumption is that you are anti the East Black country.

Adesoji Iginla (38:13.428)
on that camp. Yeah. Hostile to the... Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (38:23.726)
The east.

Milton Allimadi (38:26.003)
And obviously, in many cases, they never had a choice. They never had a choice. You saw what happened in Congo in 1960, when the independence of Congo was practically reversed by Belgium, United States, Britain not willing to have Africans in the Congo be in control of all those resources. So they engineered a coup d'etat.

Adesoji Iginla (38:31.328)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (38:36.802)
Yes. Hijacked.

Adesoji Iginla (38:51.65)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (38:55.082)
against the Mumbai, the legitimately elected first prime minister, and they had him murdered and they installed and sustained Mugtu for 37 years. So a lot of those dynamics still exist with us today. But more than the fact that those dynamics exist, a much more important issue is this. It is because of the weakness

from these small African countries. That's what we're forced to in this 1959 speech. Even before Nkrumah wrote neocolonialism, the last stage of imperialism, in 1965, six years later, you see? Absolutely. Yeah. If there were, if the United States or Africa had been created,

Adesoji Iginla (39:26.009)
does

Adesoji Iginla (39:32.387)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (39:38.126)
or Africa most unite by year.

Milton Allimadi (39:54.965)
in 1963 at the first meeting of the Organization of African Unity, a lot of these issues and problems and challenges that the continent faces today, we will not be discussing this today. We will be discussing other issues, but not this, you know? And I don't believe that a United States of Africa

Adesoji Iginla (40:01.249)
and unity.

Adesoji Iginla (40:08.504)
would have been.

Milton Allimadi (40:21.96)
having built its economic power from 1963 up to now would tolerate the kind of genocidal attacks that we're seeing against the people in Gaza today. They would not just stand idly and watch because there would be a global political and economic power and they cannot have that kind of bloodshed going.

Adesoji Iginla (40:37.24)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (40:51.432)
practically across the border. That is where that region is located relative to where Egypt is located. So just think about that. So because we will fail to form a United States of Africa, we've also failed to intervene in many situations that the United States of Africa would have been able to intervene in.

Adesoji Iginla (41:00.728)
Yeah, Mount Sinai. Mount Sinai is the only...

Adesoji Iginla (41:12.75)
Even on the continent. even on the continent. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Saying that, let's go to the speech itself. I want to take some parts, and I would like you to expand on it. So I'll go to, and the speech can be found on South African History Online. So it's titled, Robots Magoliso Subukwe, the opening address.

at the Africanist inaugural convention, 4th of April, 1959. I've highlighted some parts. And so we start, international scene. This is him talking back in the day. We're living today sons and daughters of the soil, fighters in the cause of African freedom in an era that is pregnant with untold possibilities for good and evil.

The production of rust, so he's talking about the, you know, the advancement of technology and he goes into, he focuses on food. So he says the production of rust resistant strain of wheat in the field of agriculture, the amazing discoveries in the field of medicine, chemistry, physics, all this mean that man is acquiring a better knowledge of his environment and is well on the way to establishing

Milton Allimadi (42:14.107)
Right.

Adesoji Iginla (42:36.938)
absolute control over that environment. Now Africa could have been in that position just like you said from 1963 then he goes further. However in spite of all of these rapid advances in material and physical world Ma appears to either be unwilling to or unable to solve the problem of social relations between man and man. Could you explain what he means by that?

Milton Allimadi (43:06.619)
I don't think I need to explain anything. think it's very obvious to anybody listening to you read that. This speech, it's 1959, this speech could be, you could change the date on it and put 2024.

Adesoji Iginla (43:08.224)
You

Adesoji Iginla (43:13.166)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (43:19.444)
Yes! Exactly!

Milton Allimadi (43:22.862)
And that is why it was so profound, you see? Absolutely. You can write a speech today. In fact, I should write a speech today saying, in spite of all our achievements, you know, as a collective human family, in science, in agriculture, in technology, in medicine, you name it, at the end of the day, as he said,

Adesoji Iginla (43:26.094)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (43:33.708)
and just change it.

Adesoji Iginla (43:38.1)
Mm. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (43:47.564)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (43:53.006)
Unable or unwilling to solve the problems, the social relations between man and man.

Adesoji Iginla (43:59.308)
man and man. That is path

Milton Allimadi (44:02.36)
And I submit, of course, the essential reason for that is because of greed and profit and global capital.

Adesoji Iginla (44:15.409)
Hmm.

So I go further. We see the world split into two large hostile blocs, now free by the way, represented by the United States and the Soviet Union respectively. These blocs are engaged in terrible competition, use rough language and tactics, employ brinksmanship stunts, which have the whole world heading for a nervous breakdown.

They each armed with terrible weapons of destruction and continue to spend millions of pounds in the production of more and more of these weapons. In spite of all or the diplomatic talk of coexistence, these blocs each behave as though they do not believe coexistence was possible. Again, I pose the question.

Milton Allimadi (45:02.72)
The same thing. at the dynamics. Look at the polarity, the polarization. You know, on the one hand, the same United States and her allies in the NATO countries, which by the way, the attempted expansion of NATO toward Russia is the main reason for the ongoing war between Russia and Ukraine.

Adesoji Iginla (45:10.414)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (45:16.866)
Hmm. Yeah. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (45:33.742)
Could you repeat that for those at the back, please? That's as you said. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (45:33.803)
which of course.

Milton Allimadi (45:37.865)
Okay, very good. So yes, everybody agrees that the Soviet Russia rather committed aggression by invading Ukraine. And the war has been ongoing for two years now. But what is left out in the narrative was that NATO had been underhandedly expanding closer and closer to Russia.

Adesoji Iginla (45:48.738)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (45:52.418)
Yeah, just over.

Adesoji Iginla (46:05.678)
You

Milton Allimadi (46:08.053)
by playing with the possibility of having Ukraine become a NATO partner. And for people to understand this in a much more simple term, it would be like going back to the days of the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact, Of which all these countries, satellite countries, aligned under the domination of the Soviet Union.

Adesoji Iginla (46:14.528)
And it, it needs a member. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (46:30.094)
Correct?

Adesoji Iginla (46:34.734)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Milton Allimadi (46:37.641)
and they had their own version of NATO, which was the Wazilpac, right? Can you imagine Cuba becoming a part of the Wazilpac? What would the United States do?

Adesoji Iginla (46:41.098)
Yep. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (46:47.746)
just, I mean, the Cuban mission crisis.

Milton Allimadi (46:51.006)
The United States would probably invade Cuba, and this time would not just arm Cuban dissidents like they did at the Bay of Pigs, and they were annihilated by Castro. This time the US itself would invade Cuba. You see? So you have to contextualize these things, and that's what's going on right now between Ukraine and Russia. You see?

Adesoji Iginla (46:57.696)
Hmm. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (47:05.976)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (47:11.427)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (47:15.81)
But you won't get that in the media. The media...

Milton Allimadi (47:18.481)
No, absolutely not. Because they prefer the simple narrative. There's always one bad guy, there's always one good guy. And this case, it's our guy Ukraine. And that justifies sending billions of dollars in finance and weapons while you ignore your own domestic issues right here in the United States.

Adesoji Iginla (47:24.78)
Ha ha ha ha ha

You

Adesoji Iginla (47:33.41)
Hmm

Adesoji Iginla (47:38.606)
I continue. I continue. So we go on to the African position. The question then arises, where does Africa fit into this picture? Where? And where, particularly do we African nationalists, we Africanists in South Africa fit in? There is no doubt that with the liquidation of Western imperialism and colonialism in Asia,

Milton Allimadi (47:41.767)
Yeah. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (48:07.486)
capitalist market has shrunk considerably. As a result, Africa has become the happy hunting ground of averturistic capital. There is again a scramble for Africa. Both the Soviet Union and the United States of America are trying to win the loyalty of the African states, which is you alluded to earlier. He goes on and is being very facetious here when he says the courtship has reached

a stage where the parties are going out together and they probably hold hands in the dark, but nowhere has it reached a stage where the parties can kiss in public without blushing. Would you say that is not the case? I mean, right now, everybody's brazen about who they're with. Just take the case of the Sahel states.

Milton Allimadi (48:50.235)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (49:03.249)
Yeah, but those are exceptional. Those have taken a firm position. In many cases, they still wait, they sit on the sideline and allow both sides to sort of woo them. And that section that you just read, it's perfect fit for what is happening today. When the war started between Russia and Ukraine, you had Blinken

Adesoji Iginla (49:05.39)
Hmm.

Okay?

Adesoji Iginla (49:12.078)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:16.174)
Mm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:19.832)
Mm-hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (49:28.558)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (49:33.577)
and I forget our name now the US ambassador to to the United Nations How can I forget me? Yeah

Adesoji Iginla (49:43.594)
my god. Johnson, something Johnson. No, no, no. I know, I know, My name escapes me.

Milton Allimadi (49:47.9)
No, no, no, no, the current ambassador, the outgoing ambassador. I think the last time is green, green, is it green field something? Look it up, So you had her and Blinken traveling to all these different African countries to try to get the leaders to align with them and the United Nations in terms of, know, condemning

Adesoji Iginla (49:55.928)
Greenfield, Greenfield, Greenfield, Greenfield, Greenfield.

Milton Allimadi (50:16.916)
Russia for the invasion. On the one hand, on the other hand, you had the Russian foreign minister Lavrov also traveling to all these African countries to try to get the leaders in these countries to also support them in the vote of the United Nations. So you have the same wooing that, and this time for political reasons, of course.

that Subukwe is disgusting in his speech in 1959.

Adesoji Iginla (50:54.466)
The ambassador you wanted is Linda Thomas-Greenfield.

Milton Allimadi (50:59.46)
Yes, correct, film, Linda Thomas Green film. So, but then it goes back to what I just said earlier. Why is this happening? This is happening because Africa remains potentially very strong, but effectively very weak. Potentially very strong because it has the number, the population, 1.3 billion people, imagine, united.

Adesoji Iginla (51:26.603)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (51:29.645)
under one flag, the United States of Africa, then you're man, automatic power right there. Right? You know, and then the resources that the continent has. One of the most desirable resource right now is cobalt in the era of clean energy for electric cars, right? You needed to make those batteries. Congo, between Congo and

Adesoji Iginla (51:54.36)
Yeah, yeah, cool.

Milton Allimadi (51:59.404)
Zambia they probably have close to 70 percent of this right but they cannot leverage that

Adesoji Iginla (52:00.535)
Zambia.

of the world's, yeah, yeah, world's reserve, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (52:13.366)
as these two tiny countries, whatever they get in return will be acceptable to the West or even to China, you see, which is now a global economic power as well. So it goes back to the same thing, the same reason why Zubukwe formed the Pan-Africanist Congress. Zubukwe would have been happy to serve under

Adesoji Iginla (52:38.413)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (52:43.162)
President Krumm if there was a United States of Africa, you know, we need those type of committed pan-africanist leaders And there were a few in the 1960s, but You know now we are not producing them because Many Africans see what happened to those leaders in the 1960s and they are not willing to pay the ultimate price Which is with their life, you know

Adesoji Iginla (52:46.99)
States of Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (52:58.894)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (53:12.732)
Mm-mm.

Adesoji Iginla (53:16.75)
I'll continue.

at a time when thousands of our people roam the streets in search of work and are being told by the foreign ruler to go back to a home which he has assigned them, whether that meant the breakup of their families or not, at a time when the distinctive badge of slavery and humiliation did not pass is being extended from the African male dog to the African female bitch.

Milton Allimadi (54:15.0)
Alright, so...

Milton Allimadi (54:18.946)
So Bukka was a very smart, intelligent man. And I'm wondering, right? And I think...

Adesoji Iginla (54:21.902)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (54:28.992)
You know, now Benjamin, what's his last name again? The journalist.

Adesoji Iginla (54:35.022)
program

Milton Allimadi (54:39.008)
In their interactions, I wish I had asked him, how do you see South Africa eventually being liberated? Do you think it's going to be internal uprising that the state will not be able to contain? Something similar to Sharpeville, but multiplied all over the country? Do you think it's going to take armed intervention from the

Adesoji Iginla (54:48.11)
Hmm

Milton Allimadi (55:09.128)
other African nations as they win their independence and become stronger. What do you think is going to happen? Or do you think apartheid will ultimately end? And of course, it took armed military intervention. But it was not by the neighboring African states, as you know. You took armed military intervention from Cuba.

Adesoji Iginla (55:39.256)
Tiny Cuba.

Milton Allimadi (55:41.109)
Cuba intervened in 1975 to ensure that UNITA and the FNLA, UNITA led by Zambini, FNLA led by Holden Robato, both CIA agents, would not end up being in power in Angola after these separate liberation movements in addition to the MPLA.

Adesoji Iginla (55:59.743)
Gents,

Milton Allimadi (56:10.471)
under Agostinho Netto and defeated the Portuguese militarily in Angola during the liberation struggle. So now come to an independence, I believe November 1975.

Cuba decisively intervenes on the side of the MPLA, which is led by, they said by, Agostino Neto, who was a socialist or believed in Marxist-Leninist principles. So they were ideological compatriots, and they won, and Neto became president. And then you have in 1987,

when South Africa invaded massively in support of Savinbi and UNITA, and they might have gone all the way to take power in Angola. So for a second time, Cuba intervened massively with tens of thousands of soldiers and Castro himself commanding the battle by satellite phone. And they defeated South Africa militarily.

and they were forced to withdraw. And when they withdrew, they realized that this is slippery slope. Those guys could actually pursue us back to South Africa and defeat us. So they allowed, and let's also remember the Cubans fought alongside Angola's natural army and the ANC's encounter with Sizre, which was the armed guerrilla wing, as well as Suapo, which was the liberation.

Adesoji Iginla (57:48.354)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (57:52.57)
army of South Namibia. So Namibia becomes independence. Mandela is released. Mandela becomes president. I don't think in his most fertile vision, that's a good example of foreseeing something like this. Because you would analyze the powers and you would say, well, I don't see the Soviet Union really becoming

Adesoji Iginla (58:01.464)
Press that.

Adesoji Iginla (58:07.95)
They could envisage such a thing would happen.

Adesoji Iginla (58:13.998)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (58:22.117)
militarily involved to help us end apartheid because that will probably spark conflict between the Soviet Union and the NATO countries, right? So it's a world war. I don't see China doing the same thing, right? And who could imagine tiny Cuba because of how the government and society was organized in Cuba.

Adesoji Iginla (58:31.982)
Sure,

Adesoji Iginla (58:46.636)
is organized. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (58:49.188)
being able to have that ideological component to be willing for that kind of intervention and sense South Africa to its courts, which of course takes us to the next conversation. And that is for another conversation because what does independence really mean in Africa, correct? What does the end of apartheid really mean in South Africa?

Adesoji Iginla (58:56.554)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (59:08.712)
my god.

Milton Allimadi (59:19.106)
if all the economic structures of domination are still in place in Africa as well as in South Africa. But that would take a whole program in itself, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (59:21.968)
Still in place. Eggs. my god.

Adesoji Iginla (59:27.918)
Okay, one final piece. Okay, yeah. So he says, the African leaders of the continent has given her answer. Mr. Speaker and children of the soil, Dr. Kwame Nkrumah has repeatedly stated that in international affairs, Africa wishes to pursue a policy of positive neutrality, align ourselves to neither the existing blocks, but in the words of Dr. Namdi Adizikwe of Nigeria,

Milton Allimadi (59:31.802)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (59:57.802)
remaining independent in all things but neutral in none. But that affects the destiny of Africa. Mr. Tom Mbuya of Kenya has expressed himself more fortuitously declaring, it is not the intention of African states to change one master Western imperialism for another Soviet hegemony. Wow, that is...

Milton Allimadi (01:00:21.613)
All right, so that is, and obviously.

Milton Allimadi (01:00:28.982)
What to...

Milton Allimadi (01:00:33.325)
could not have done at that time was to assess and analyze how reactionary and disappointing the African bourgeoisie, the new emerging class in Africa, how reactionary and how destructive they were going to be to the interest of Africa, which exactly what happened. So at the end of the day, they actually ended up being either aligned with the West

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:47.246)
Mmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:55.341)
Alright.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:03.477)
or aligned with the East. Because to be not aligned, first of all, you have to be strong. You have to be powerful. You can't say, you know, I don't want to get involved in your arguments, therefore I'm not aligned. They'll say, okay, you still want that money.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:12.022)
I'm just on NON-A-LINE.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:24.459)
What do you think this is? He was using the analogy of being, you know, wooing a beautiful lady. You're saying we go out on a date, right? And I handle the tab and you just turn and walk home.

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:30.158)
You

Milton Allimadi (01:01:39.605)
Every time we go on a date, you know, two days, three days, four days, five days, 10 days, you know, you are not advancing our relationship any further. You know, does the world really work like that?

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:55.017)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:56.201)
You see, Jerry Rawlings actually put it back first. You know, the late Ghanaian president, he said, we did not even have a chance to be African. We were not given an opportunity to be African. We were told we had no choice. You have to be either pro-West,

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:15.992)
Mmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:23.444)
Pro-East. Generally wrong, I this.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:27.982)
And Sankara went a step further by saying, I cannot do it alone. If I did, I will not be here for the next meeting. But if they can kill us all, yes, yes. I mean, it's like those guys really study their history, which is what is often lacking nowadays. It's that idea that...

Milton Allimadi (01:02:37.992)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:42.462)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:51.274)
So Ankara easily could have been a university professor. You know, he loved reading. He loved knowledge. And he was very well read. With other journalists, he would discuss the books that he had bought, books he had read. That should be a requirement for any and every African. Head of state, you cannot lead a whole country if you're anti-knowledge, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:54.637)
Yeah!

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:01.774)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:03:20.361)
I wonder what Nyerere would say about the current United States president. Because Nyerere said, and I repeated this many times, I think it was in 1985, maybe after he had just stepped down as president, or maybe before, maybe he was still president, or sometimes. He said that he told an American journalist, the world

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:37.646)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:03:45.008)
and the United States would be a much better place if the United States had an opposition party. And the journalist said, what do you mean, Mr. President? We have the Democrats and Republicans. He said, that's a problem. Both imperialist and both capitalist. And now if he were to be told today that the current president does not even like reading, we say, OK, guys.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:09.262)
You

Milton Allimadi (01:04:12.17)
I've had enough of my existence in this world. It's time for me to go. Join me with the ancestors at some point.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:20.12)
What?

Milton Allimadi (01:04:22.066)
Right?

you know, who was a teacher before he went into politics, right? Whose most prized possession was not automobiles or mansion, but books that he had, you know, thousands of books. You know, I think in one was watching one program where I think that it was said 10,000 books and I read all of those books, you and now you're telling him

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:30.552)
Yeah, waliimo.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:37.07)
It was book. Books. Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:54.51)
You

Milton Allimadi (01:04:54.91)
that McCarran, United States president, does not like reading. When he's telling you that the whole world is impacted by the United States, think about that.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:09.025)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:05:11.228)
So, sisters and brothers, we have our work cut out, but that is the beauty also of being born and located in Africa. Because we started human existence. It is from Africa where it started and then spread around the world, right? It means the solution for the continuation of human existence.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:15.448)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:31.97)
Hmm. Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:05:40.711)
will have to come from Africa as well, from where it really started. And that's one advantage we have. Many Africans, we are still connected to our humanity and our spirituality, no matter how much capital and modernization has corrupted, a lot of that. As people, I think we are still most closely connected to the essence of the earth.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:42.638)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:03.15)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:06:10.075)
itself. And that is what is really needed. We can't become human technocrats or robots.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:14.486)
Mm. Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:06:23.625)
That's right, you know many people from all over the world still go to Africa to see nature as Nature should exist, you know to see game and wild animal and scenic Locations that have not yet been ruined by modern development so Africa plays Will continue to play significant role in reconstructing the world that we deserve We just need better

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:24.152)
me.

Milton Allimadi (01:06:53.501)
leadership in Africa. We need more people like the Roberts of Buquoise in Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:59.182)
And speaking to the solution coming from Africa, Chekiata Diop actually put forth a documentary solution in 1934. It's called Black Africa, the Economic and Cultural Basis for a Federated State. And the book was published in 1974. So the...

Milton Allimadi (01:07:07.782)
Yes. Thank you. Mention that book. Please remind people of that book.

Milton Allimadi (01:07:15.974)
I'm trying to look for mine. I think it's coming out there.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:26.862)
The solution is not exactly there you go. There you go. That's it. The solution is at hand. These things, like you said, if one leader who is for tried enough is able to read and even goes in depth. Okay. If you cannot read an entire book, it actually goes into 14 steps, 14 steps.

Milton Allimadi (01:07:47.068)
Yeah, I think we should we should put that in one of our next discussions the book since we both have copies, you know, yeah

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:52.398)
14, 14, yeah, 14 steps. goes in detail into what is needed, how it should be done, when it should be done, you know. So you find all these leaders going around, coming to Europe for problems that exactly. From them, step by step, one, two, three, four, up to 14. You know, again,

Milton Allimadi (01:08:07.208)
looking for solutions when the solution has already been outlined for them.

Milton Allimadi (01:08:17.639)
Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:22.158)
I know we can go on and on, but again, again, thank you. We've come to the end of another hopefully exciting conversation for everyone. And again, like I said, thank you all for subscribing to the channel. If this is your first time yet, you can still subscribe. 1000 is not the limit. 1000 just means this.

Milton Allimadi (01:08:25.468)
We will save some for next week.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:50.508)
We're telling YouTube that this is what people want to see. And the more people subscribe to it, the more YouTube puts it in front of viewers. And hopefully everybody comes to terms with the information we're passing on here and sharing. And again, I'd like to say thank you, not just to Comrade Milton, also to our audience and those who will listen to this in the course of the week on the audio podcast, continue to...

subscribe, share, you know, all the good stuff. Each one bring one as they say. And Brother Milton, thank you very much for coming through. And from me, it's a good night and see you all next week. And bye bye.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:49.454)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:56.17)
okay i think we're good yeah

Milton Allimadi (01:10:00.388)
So it's still recording.

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:00.718)
Let me... Yeah, I just said refresh page. What do you mean refresh? Cancel? Something went wrong? But don't worry about it. No, no, hopefully not. Hopefully not. Everyone is still being recorded. Please try to refresh to resolve the issue. One second. Let me just do...

Milton Allimadi (01:10:10.612)
no, don't tell us.

Milton Allimadi (01:10:24.489)
Okay, but I shouldn't do anything on my end, right?

Milton Allimadi (01:10:34.293)
Are you still there?

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:38.051)
Yeah, I'm still here. still here. Okay, so stop that.