EP 5 African News Review I Adesoji Speaks Knowledge 🌍

In this conversation, Adesoji Iginla and Milton Allimadi discuss Egypt's decision to join South Africa in a lawsuit against Israel at the International Court of Justice.
They also explore the ongoing conflict in the Eastern Congo and the involvement of Rwanda, as well as the sale of troubled Kenyan tea estates to a Sri Lankan conglomerate.
The conversation highlights the geopolitical dynamics at play and the impact on the African continent.
The conversation covers two main themes: the exploitation of labor in the agricultural industry and the Palestinian struggle for statehood. In the first theme, the discussion focuses on the need for workers to have ownership and control over agricultural corporations to ensure fair wages, decent working conditions, and economic empowerment.
The second theme explores the recent UN vote to grant new rights and privileges to Palestine and the call for the Security Council to reconsider Palestine's request for full membership. The conversation suggests that a bold move, such as declaring independence and forming a unity government, is necessary for the Palestinian cause.

Chapters

00:00 Egypt's Bold Move: Joining South Africa in Lawsuit Against Israel

23:58  The Ongoing Conflict in the Eastern Congo: Rwanda's Role and Regional Support

35:02  Troubled Kenyan Tea Estates Sold to Sri Lankan Conglomerate: Accountability Concerns

36:13  Geopolitical Dynamics and Economic Interests in Africa

37:58  Exploitation of Labor in the Agricultural Industry

55:03  The UN Vote and the Palestinian Struggle for Statehood

Transcript

Adesoji Iginla (00:01.358)
Yes, welcome again to Adesaji Speaks. And again, we're going through the headlines in the Western press as it affects Africa and giving our take on it. As usual, I'm joined again by the famous explorer, writer, author, and publisher, Black Star News, brother, comrade,

Milton Allimadi

Milton Allimadi (00:33.327)
Thank you so much and I always appreciate being on this show.

Adesoji Iginla (00:37.902)
OK. So again, we're going to begin this week by an interesting development in terms of what's transpired within the African continent. And by that, I'm referring to Egypt attempting to enter the case with

South Africa on behalf of the Palestinians. And the reason this story stood out to me was likely because not only was it groundbreaking, but also the fact that the Western media was a bit quiet about it. And I think I know the reason why, but I'll allow Brother Milton to first of all get dips into it.

But before then, I will share the story, which is Egypt says it will formally join the lawsuit filed by South Africa against Israel at the International Court of Justice, which accused Israel of violating its obligation on the Geneva Convention in the Gaza Strip. And so,

Based on that, what would you say your initial reaction was?

Milton Allimadi (02:11.343)
Well, my reaction is a day late and a dollar short, but better later than never in terms of intervention because it's quite a shame. But in a way, it's not a shame because it's not shocking that it was South Africa that took the lead in breaking the code of silence against the genocidal attack against the Palestinian people.

by the Israeli defense forces under the direction of its commander in chief, which is of course Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel. So it took on Africa to break that code of global silence. And that silence, of course, is because the United States is fully supporting Israel in this onslaught against the Palestinian people. Diplomatic cover.

as we've seen on many occasions of the United Nations, with military resources, the weapons, replacing the weapons, the ammunition, and of course the financial resources. So, many leaders around the world were afraid and intimidated because they knew the United States would retaliate if they took a very strong public position.

denouncing and opposing this onslaught against the Palestinians. Yes, people condemned the attack by Hamas on Israel and the killing of Israelis anywhere from 1 ,200 to 1 ,400. Now the numbers have been shifting, you know, but more than a thousand, that was condemned.

But that incident has since been used as justification for this attack on Gaza and now getting set to attack, invade, rough up. And the latest report I saw was that more than 35 ,000 people have been killed as widely reported, most of them women and children. And I saw a report that says almost 80.

Milton Allimadi (04:39.055)
thousand wounded and of course at some point South Africa initiated this lawsuit at the International Court of Justice and now where are we? When May and now Egypt is joining that lawsuit after many smaller countries have joined the lawsuit.

to echo what South Africa has been doing. And of course, the lawsuit was significant. The lawsuit is what got students inspired, is what got and actually helped ignite the campus protest. I don't think it was a coincidence that it came weeks after the storm of Africa, after South Africa stood up. South Africa stood up because of course,

the legacy of Nelson Mandela. He was a big supporter of the Palestinian people. And you know that the Palestinian people had collaborated, particularly when the PLO, Palestine Liberation Organization, under the late Yasser Arafat, was the main organization advocating for the Palestinian cause. They worked very closely with South Africa and Mandela. Remember how he was pressured to try to...

Adesoji Iginla (05:51.406)
of the fact.

Milton Allimadi (06:05.359)
condemned the Piola and Yasser Arafat and refused. So South Africa remembered that legacy and they asked, what would Mandela do? I think that's what helped them launch that lawsuit that became very public, very major. And then other countries started speaking up after that happened. And yet we've never heard anything significant from Egypt. In fact, Egypt has been suppressing protests.

and demonstration against the Israeli aggression. Protests are being suppressed in Egypt itself. So yes, this intervention is welcome. It's very late. In fact, when you look at Egypt, you will realize that part of the reason why Israel has been unflinching in its onslaught against the Palestinians.

Because it does not fear any consequences coming from Egypt. This is not the era of Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. I don't see Gamal Abdel Nasser just standing around and seeing what the Israeli military is doing to the Palestinians, you know. So that's my assessment.

Adesoji Iginla (07:27.694)
I mean, I think you're spot on.

Milton Allimadi (07:30.351)
And actually you raise another point that I did not answer. You raise another point. You raise the point that is not being widely covered in Western media. Because this is the kind of thing that can set off chain reactions when other countries in the Arab world also start joining this movement. And that could shift gear to another form of resistance against this onslaught. So obviously, Western corporate media...

would rather suppress this and not get this word, this new position that he did, widely covered.

Adesoji Iginla (08:10.158)
I mean, I was also minded to add that.

following Anwar Sadat's signing of the Camp David agreement and his subsequent assassination in 1981 because that act was considered an act of betrayal by the Arabs. Unfortunately, he was murdered by his soldiers.

the soldiers were going by the filling on the streets. And you mentioned in your submission now that the Egyptian government has been suppressing the Egyptian streets for a while based on the fact that, I mean, you can't see this going on and then look the other way. Now, the unfortunate thing is,

The reason why this story is actually major for me was the fact that...

If they do go ahead and break with, technically you're breaking with the agreement, and you side with the South Africans against the Israelis. One, where does that put General Assisi?

Adesoji Iginla (09:39.246)
in the international sphere as regards the United States and the Western powers and juxtapose that against his position with the streets. I mean he's already unpopular on the streets but could you read that as trying to buy some capital?

Milton Allimadi (09:58.799)
Alright, so unfortunately you cut off a little bit. I think the connectivity. So I did not get a little bit for like two seconds, but two times. So the critical parts of the question did not come through. I don't know who you were referring to in your question. So if you don't mind repeating the question.

Adesoji Iginla (10:05.166)
did I cut off?

Adesoji Iginla (10:10.798)
Okay?

Am I back now?

Adesoji Iginla (10:24.686)
OK, so the question I was posing was there is a.

I mean, with him, with Assisi, General Assisi, deciding to join the case with South Africa. Sorry?

Milton Allimadi (10:37.295)
Right. Right. Right. Okay, so, you know, obviously, I believe that Al -Sisi is under tremendous pressure from, because, you know, you must also be aware that Egypt and the Egyptian military is a professional force, absolutely.

but it also has a lot of sympathizers to the Muslim Brotherhood, right? And they tend to be a little more, a lot more radical rather than the Egyptian state. So I think there's a lot, just because we're not reading about it, just because they're publicly suppressing the protest in solidarity.

with Palestinians, can you imagine a major country like Egypt, we're not seeing massive protests like the ones we've seen in London in support of the Palestinian people. Can you imagine the amount of suppression that must be going on? But at the same time, when you have that level of suppression, can you imagine the type of discontent that is just bubbling from beneath the surface?

So I think part of the reason why Egypt is joining this lawsuit is also to try to ameliorate these pressures that are percolating beneath the surface. I expect that the pressure is actually tremendous. And as you know, Egypt also is caught between a rock and a hard place. The economy is very precarious. Egypt cannot afford.

Adesoji Iginla (12:29.102)
on your heart place, yeah?

Milton Allimadi (12:34.831)
to lose the subsidies that it gets from the United States. As a part of signing that deal, Egypt also is entitled to and has been receiving billions of dollars from the United States since that agreement was signed in, when was it, 76?

Yeah, so Egypt, you know, obviously Israel gets a lot more, but Egypt also gets a significant amount, billions from the United States every year. So Egypt...

Adesoji Iginla (13:09.55)
subsidies, military hardware and what have you. Technical military assistance and training and you know.

Milton Allimadi (13:12.655)
Absolutely.

Milton Allimadi (13:21.263)
Yeah, so Egypt cannot afford to take a completely hostile position toward the United States and toward Israel at the same time because its economy is now linked up to this pipeline. Recently, I believe it either received or it was in negotiations for billions of dollars in financial support.

Adesoji Iginla (13:27.406)
position.

Milton Allimadi (13:50.543)
of the IMF or the World Bank. So Egypt is between a rock and a hard place. If it takes a position that is seen to be a little too militant, then I think the economic squeeze will be put in place and Egypt will be brought back to line. And that's part of what's the problem when the economy is too linked up.

Adesoji Iginla (14:05.582)
It would be Buddha. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (14:19.695)
to the establishment, the system.

Adesoji Iginla (14:26.67)
There is one other part here. I mean, you've mentioned the economics.

Adesoji Iginla (14:37.71)
And what's the doubt? One of the reasons why he was considered a pariah amongst the Arabs then was the fact that he was offered $7 billion for 10 years. And his retort was, the will of the Egyptians is not for sale. So the question then would be,

If, as you alluded to, the fact that, basically, the Egyptian economy is on life support from the American capitalist system,

If this move is considered hostile, can we see the fall of Hasisi as

Milton Allimadi (15:32.367)
Bye.

No, I don't think so. If the Al Sisi falls, it would have been generated by, I don't know if there's such, you know, these are things that were popular in the past. Absolutely. Like, you know, young officers in the military who are also being distressed and humiliated by what is being, by what is...

Adesoji Iginla (15:38.19)
Okay.

Adesoji Iginla (15:51.15)
internal pressure.

Milton Allimadi (16:06.127)
happening to the Palestinians. Remember, after all, Al Sisi overthrew a democratically elected president.

Adesoji Iginla (16:06.19)
the weakness.

Adesoji Iginla (16:17.39)
Yeah, Mohammed Mosse.

Milton Allimadi (16:18.991)
Absolutely, in Egypt. And not surprisingly, he died behind bars, right? In jail. And the United States had no problem with that. You know, supporting this, you know, this cool leader.

Adesoji Iginla (16:27.406)
yeah yeah yeah they yeah well they actually went to speak to him in prison so i suppose that that counts for support

Milton Allimadi (16:40.367)
I mean there was no sanctions, there was no major condemnation, it was business as usual. So obviously the US would prefer to deal with a reliable person like Al Sisi than have some radical...

Adesoji Iginla (16:55.086)
And if I'm not mistaken, President Obama went to Cairo to lecture them about democracy.

Milton Allimadi (17:04.335)
Yes, right. Shortly after he was elected president. But those are the contradictions that we live in. And it's not only in Egypt, it's in Africa. That's the contradiction we live in. So look at it. As of March, 2014, IMF approved an $8 billion loan to India.

Adesoji Iginla (17:09.966)
or

Adesoji Iginla (17:16.238)
Okay, I mean.

Milton Allimadi (17:32.655)
The loan is an additional five billion to the IMF program for Egypt. Do you really think Egypt can afford to jeopardize this? And you know who the main shareholder of the IMF is in terms of voting rights? It's the United States. So that explains everything about why Egypt has been so dormant when it comes to...

Adesoji Iginla (17:50.794)
Exactly.

Adesoji Iginla (17:57.742)
And as the Americans will say, you do not want to fumble the bag.

Milton Allimadi (18:01.391)
There you go.

Adesoji Iginla (18:03.63)
And plus, the European community has been speaking to him of late about how to stifle the incessant crossing of the Mediterranean.

Milton Allimadi (18:17.327)
Yeah, and now you have Rafa right on your doorsteps and you're going to witness another slaughter right on your doorsteps, right? If Netanyahu should go ahead as he's been promising, and there's no indication that why would he be making these false promises? You know, if he goes in full scale as he's been promising to do, we're going to have another slaughter right...

Adesoji Iginla (18:21.518)
doorstep. Yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (18:27.84)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (18:46.927)
on Alcice's doorsteps.

Adesoji Iginla (18:50.19)
I mean, it's really unfortunate in terms of set of circumstances for the Palestinians, because they seem to have been the historical football in the Middle East. Everyone from Saddam Hussein to Hassad, I mean Bashir Hassad, his father, Hafiz Hassad.

the Saudis everyone yeah

Milton Allimadi (19:22.351)
Right, well you can compare their plight to the plight of Sisson brothers from Mozambique, from what was Indonesia, from Angola, from Zambia, during the height of apartheid South Africa. When they were all in exile, South Africans, Southern Africans, all...

Adesoji Iginla (19:40.974)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (19:52.143)
having to flee further and further away from South Africa, of course, was the epicenter, right? But then you'd have Mozambicans fleeing to Tanzania, Zimbabweans fleeing to Tanzania, fleeing to other countries. And of course, it was different in the sense that until the very end, until the issue of apartheid was...

at least formally demolished in South Africa. The African leaders stood together, regardless of any political differences they may have. Nyerere was a socialist, an avowed socialist, and proud of that. But of course, most of the African leaders he dealt with were IMF presidents, right, under the neoliberal regime.

Adesoji Iginla (20:40.814)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (20:49.999)
But they worked together when it came to the liberation of southern Africa from apartheid and restrictive rule and occupation. You see? So that was a very important equation. So we don't have that right now when it comes to the <|de|> <|translate|> <|notimestamps|> matter of the Palestinians. And that is why it took South Africa.

Adesoji Iginla (20:54.222)
Southern Africa, yes.

Adesoji Iginla (21:06.798)
Hmm.

And the fact that they actually helped train the ANC in Algeria. You know, it's a...

Milton Allimadi (21:15.311)
Absolutely, of course. Right. So now I think South Africa also sees that as sort of their repayment for the assistance. And yeah, it's a good thing you brought that up. Many people are not aware that Nelson Mandela actually trained together with the FNLA of Algeria in the early 1960s, you see. So this relationship...

Adesoji Iginla (21:38.575)
Wow, that's true, that's true, that's true.

Milton Allimadi (21:44.111)
with that part of the African continent goes way, way down. And as Mandela said, and if people have not watched this, I highly recommend it, when Mandela appeared in the town hall at City College campus in 1990, showed the athletes when he was visiting the United States. And there's that famous, you know, of course,

Adesoji Iginla (21:47.726)
liberation movements.

Milton Allimadi (22:13.391)
of how he, you know, he neutered Ted Koppel. But in that same interview, Mandela said, he said, Yasser Arakhat, Muammar Kadathu, Nidalee Castro, they did not support us with rhetoric. They supported us with material resources, money, weapons, and training.

Adesoji Iginla (22:33.454)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (22:41.423)
So of course, South Africa could never forget that type of investment in the fight against apartheid. And that is why South Africa has been willing to be at the forefront. And as even, you know, there was that bill they wanted to bring in Congress to punish South Africa, to place sanctions upon South Africa. These accusations that, you know, anti -Semites, you know, you know.

Adesoji Iginla (23:07.598)
that they were being antisemitic. Yeah, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (23:12.175)
which of course is something that I've been using as a weapon to silence any dissent. You saw it yourself when the college students started protesting, even though many Jewish students were joining in the protest as well.

Adesoji Iginla (23:30.094)
I think that's the disarming aspect. And speaking of disarming, everyone seemed to have, at least that's the accusation that's been labeled on the world, is the fact that what is happening in Gaza has taken the eyes off what is transpiring in Congo for those who are not aware.

The Eastern Congo now is the field of incessant troubles, not least because the M23 rebels have been waging a war of attrition on the Eastern side of Congo. And for people who are not aware, the Eastern side of Congo holds many of the material resources that's

apply most of our convenience devices in the West. And so recently the Financial Times was reporting that, let me second, that we seem to have forgotten that the Congo war has now become a war for survival.

the battle for the city of Goma pits government forces and allied militias against Rwanda's backed M23 rebels and how the fight has gone now 40 year olds are now fighting and this young warrior sister has said if I'm given the chance to return to the fight I will do so

to end the war against the M23. And what is this latest fighting on about? The fighting has sucked in on one side Congolese forces armed with Chinese -made drones, UN peacekeepers, troops from Burundi, Malawi, South Africa, and Tanzania, and European security contractors, including former fighters from the

Adesoji Iginla (25:52.718)
French Legionnaire. M23 on the other hand is backed by neighboring Rwanda although Kigali has never acknowledged that its soldiers are on the ground. What is your take on this?

Milton Allimadi (26:08.719)
So this is a perennial, non -ending conflict because Rwanda needs chaos and conflict and mayhem in Eastern Congo to sustain its economy. As that article also reported, the Congolese have alleged that Rwanda siphons off mineral resources valued at over a billion dollars every year stolen from Eastern Congo.

and then shipped to the industrialized countries through Rwanda. And of course the same is happening on the side of Uganda. Both of them share borders with Congo. But right now the focus is the mayhem that is coming from Rwanda. Because M23 is really essentially the units of Rwanda's armed forces, you know, intermingling with some Congolese.

but the military marshal is the military of Rwanda. You see the uniforms they wear. You know, these are not your typical rebels. The rag tag military outfit. If anybody wants to go and look at a successful classical rebel group, go back and Google the images of Fidel Castro and his fighters and see, you can see that those were genuine rebels just by the outfit they wore.

These guys are wearing spick and span military uniforms with radio communication with satellite phones, state -of -the -art spick and span military boots, military vehicles. They operate artillery. What kind of rebels operate artillery? This is a conventional army. So Congo is the victim of a war of aggression from Rwanda.

Adesoji Iginla (27:46.414)
state of the arts.

Adesoji Iginla (27:59.214)
Wow.

Milton Allimadi (28:07.663)
Congo, of course, has been the victim of many wars of aggression from Uganda and from Rwanda. And right now, but here's the thing.

Milton Allimadi (28:20.815)
The fact that the United States is now officially saying that Rwanda is supporting M23, it means a couple of things. It means, number one, Goma will not fall. And if Goma falls, it will be for a very short time. And it would invite, I think, some serious retaliation against M23, which actually equals Rwanda. So Rwanda is actually in a very...

precarious position right now because By making a public statement like that The EU has acknowledged that this is essentially that one day invasion by saying that one is back in a 23 The United Nations likewise has acknowledged that and of course, even though there have been asked to withdraw The major UN force is still there. And of course, there's been many issues with that and many of the problems that across

but they're there as well with about 13 ,000 soldiers. The African Union has accepted Congo's position that this is something that needs to be negotiated between the government of Congo and the government of Rwanda, not M23. So even the African Union has accepted that this is an invasion from Rwanda and a war of aggression.

here's the most significant part now. South Africa has deployed its army in support of the Congolese government under the auspices of the African Union, of course. Tanzania has deployed, Malawi has deployed, Burundi has deployed. I do not see South Africa willing to deploy its soldiers in

Adesoji Iginla (29:56.334)
the congolese. Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (30:15.919)
a losing cause. I think when you do something like that, you're making a long -term commitment. So how is it that Rwanda hopes to defeat the government of Congo, South Africa, Tanzania, Malawi, Burundi, and the United States and the EU, who have all now officially sided with the Congolese government?

I think this is something that Rwanda could have gotten away with ten years ago, which it did actually in the past. But now, all these countries have recognized the importance of Congo's resources to their economies, and they would rather get it directly from the government of Congo, rather than going and sneaking through the back door, which has been the case for many years, by stealing these resources, by using our...

Adesoji Iginla (31:03.758)
Congo.

Milton Allimadi (31:15.023)
Rwanda and Uganda as their proxies. I think obviously a serious counter -attack against Rwanda would present a very volatile situation which I don't think they would like to see because it could reignite.

Adesoji Iginla (31:40.27)
because of the humanitarian position that's...

Milton Allimadi (31:43.151)
major conflict within Rwanda itself. So I don't see that happening. So I see that there must be a lot even though yes we don't see a lot of coverage. I think there's a lot of back door negotiations going on to find a way that Rwanda can withdraw or stand down M23.

but have a face -saving way of doing it.

and I think that's probably what's going to be negotiated. Otherwise, if this thing is allowed to escalate...

Adesoji Iginla (32:23.374)
Yeah, I think you hit the nail right on the head there in terms of the investment of resources by all the aforementioned parties. And also the fact that it is becoming very alarming that every time there seems to be some sort of peace around that neck of the woods, the M23 pops up.

And it's usually a case of appeasement. But I think that...

that idea is now dead in the water and I don't think it will be a case of appeasement anymore because...

Milton Allimadi (33:07.663)
Right, and to add to what you just said in terms of the peace plan, which in fact had been the case many times in the past, I think it was two weeks ago that President Chiquiti was in France. And as you know, in recent years France has been a big supporter of the government in Tigali wanting to mend relations and has been giving a lot of the karate support and financial support.

Adesoji Iginla (33:30.798)
relationships.

Milton Allimadi (33:36.783)
to the government in Rwanda. About two weeks ago, Shikheti was together with Macron discussing this issue and they had a joint press conference after their meetings, after his visit to France. And this is what Macron said. Macron said, when it comes to sovereignty, we cannot have a set of rules for Ukraine and a different set of rules.

for the Congo. That is a very significant statement. So they're coming out very openly in support of Shikheti. And I don't see how Rwanda can dig itself out of the situation without there being major back door negotiations. That is also a face saving.

Adesoji Iginla (34:14.798)
to tell where they stand.

Milton Allimadi (34:36.943)
Because obviously, if the army in Kagame's shoes, I want assurances and guarantees that the Congolese would not end up having their own version of M23, so -called rebels, crossing into Rwanda to cause havoc. I think that's the last thing that anyone would want to see.

Adesoji Iginla (34:55.534)
Hmm.

Adesoji Iginla (35:02.414)
That would be deeply troubling. That would spark memories of 1994.

Milton Allimadi (35:06.319)
Absolutely, given absolutely. So those are all the things that I think are being ironed out right now as we talk.

Adesoji Iginla (35:16.878)
And now, I mean, speaking of memories, we go to Kenya and apparently the, your favorite people, the venture capitalists have decided to rewrite, I mean, this story is deeply troubling, but I'll share.

Milton Allimadi (35:26.223)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (35:44.238)
Okay. CVC has agreed to sell the troubled Kenyan tea estates. It's a purchase from Unilever less than three years ago to Brown's Group, making the Sri Lankan conglomerate the world's largest tea exporter. The private equities group tea business, Lipting Teas and Infusions, announced on Wednesday it was offloading its plantations in

East Africa, including the controversial Keriko plantation in Kenya that has a history of violence and sexual abuse. Everything that we need to talk about is in here. And I would ask for your take.

Milton Allimadi (36:30.159)
Okay, so the whole question is, is this another, you know, imperialist neo -colonial corporation selling to another imperialist neo -colonial operation under a different guise? Who are the owners of the Sri Lanka corporation? Who are the shareholders? I doubt.

that all the shareholders or the major shareholders Sri Lankans, right? So this could be a lateral movement just to avoid like a public relations gimmick, right? Because obviously there was that, I think the BBC documentary that exposed how the women workers on this tea plantation were sexually abused.

Adesoji Iginla (37:13.166)
accountability.

Adesoji Iginla (37:25.006)
Yep, yep, yep.

Milton Allimadi (37:27.791)
There was quid pro quo to get hired to maintain your job. You had to return cycle favors. The issues of low wages, being overworked, going into debt. So that by the time you're paid, you don't even own the money because you've been taking credit just to survive.

during the season, the in between seasons because these are seasonal type employees, right? Many of them are seasonal. There's a time for planting, there's a time for harvesting, there's a time for sorting out and packaging. This is like a 24 -7 type, 12 -month outbreak. So all these issues, clearly all far.

Adesoji Iginla (38:05.198)
Employment, yeah.

Milton Allimadi (38:26.767)
not only exploitation of labor, but also exploitation, you know, sexual exploitation. And obviously to me the solution is actually what is implied also in parts of the story that 15 % of shares would be sold to the co -ops, right? The workers. It should be 100%.

That's what needs to be done. The co -ops should be operating these programs so they can set out the rules for livable wages, the rules for having decent education for the children of the workers, decent healthcare, decent retirement program. They should have a way.

Adesoji Iginla (39:10.958)
Mm -hmm.

Milton Allimadi (39:26.255)
to compute so that the paid wages throughout the year, even though it's a seasonable operation, because it produces a significant surplus, a huge profit, so that there's no need for workers not to be paid. Even at a time when there's a downtime in employment, they don't have to be paid, you know, initially maybe not the full wages, but at least a significant portion of wages.

Adesoji Iginla (39:35.438)
operations.

Milton Allimadi (39:55.887)
that would still allow them not to go into debt. Debt at very mysterious interest rates so that they would be able to pay their rent and pay their groceries, pay for their school fees, cover their health care and all that kind of stuff. So this system can be set up. That is where...

the negotiation needs to be changed, the ownership structure of these type of operations that are still there in African countries, like Kenya and a couple of other African countries, in East Africa, in Uganda, in Tanzania, and in Southern Africa, let the workers own these corporations. The World Bank really wants to help African countries.

These are the kind of things you need to invest in. Having these corporations being bought, obviously they'll need the money, the capital to buy it. Let them buy it and let them operate it and structure a plan where instead of them paying this perpetual debt servicing to the World Bank and IMF, have them pay off the current owners who would sell these entities to them.

They know how to run it, obviously, because they're the ones who run it, right? If there's a ceiling in terms of top management, if they've only been trained African managers to a certain level, they need to move to that other level for them to run the thing 100%. Train them to be at that position. And this is another way of really creating wealth and prosperity in Africa by allowing Africans to keep.

a larger share of the profit from tea production, from cocoa production, all the other major agricultural produce from the, as you know, Kenya is a major producer of horticulture, of flowers. It's a multi -billion dollar industry. Let this be run. There's a model that has been made famous, as you know, the Mandagran.

Adesoji Iginla (42:06.606)
Floss.

Milton Allimadi (42:18.831)
corporation in Spain, which is a worker owned, co -op owned corporations where the workers are the shareholders. Why can't we replicate this model in African countries? That's what we need to do. I don't see the workers owning it and tolerating this type of sexual exploitation.

Adesoji Iginla (42:33.134)
I mean, when I saw...

Adesoji Iginla (42:39.406)
Exactly. When I saw the story, there are two things that immediately jumped out at me. One is the fact that not only, like you said, bypassing the locals by not involving them in the sale, but also the fact that you sold it to a company outside of a continent. That's one. So deeply problematic. Now, the land itself is being

sold to somebody outside of the continent where you have historical claims with regards to said plantations. Okay? Okay, let's say we bring the locals in. They buy, you know, in the course of time they get ownership of the land. I think that's the fear.

Neocolonialism or the West does not want them to have access back unless you plant ideas like you're talking about with regards to the Spain model in the minds of fellow Africans. When Zimbabwe tried to do it,

Milton Allimadi (43:48.751)
Yeah, we need Africans leading that. It's not going to be a president like Ruto, of course. Ruto is next. Absolutely.

Adesoji Iginla (43:54.382)
Exactly. When Zimbabwe tried to do it, they got sanctioned. Now these guys are trying to buy it, but you're saying no.

Milton Allimadi (44:05.551)
Right. No, I mean, but they don't have any advocates. If they don't have advocates, you know, then who is going to echo their demands for them, you see? But I mean, that's why we need to have more people having this type of discussion that we are having right now. You know, economic empowerment in Africa. What is the way forward? What are the paths forward? And this is one example. They love their team.

So there's vulnerability there as well. You see? They are not going to allow it to grow up in flames or in ashes. Right? So if the demand is made properly, they would negotiate. If the workers are all united, you can't produce without the workers. See? And if the workers said, these are our demands, maybe not overnight, we want a realistic thing, three years.

Adesoji Iginla (44:56.142)
Of course.

Milton Allimadi (45:05.903)
Within three years, you want 100 % worker -owned. And World Bank, IMF, all these other agencies that claim to want to spur development in Africa, how could you refuse such a proposal? Fund it so that over three to four years, so every year you have a 25 % incremental increase in worker ownership.

Adesoji Iginla (45:34.254)
I mean when you don't see

Milton Allimadi (45:34.511)
50 % but the 30 are young, 75%. If they want, they can keep it at 75 % and have the 25 % sold at a premium. So that 25 % is actually bringing them a lot of money from outside investors. Money that can also uplift their salary range. Money that they can invest in their future. If they want 100%, that's also up to them. You see?

Adesoji Iginla (46:03.406)
True, true.

Milton Allimadi (46:03.855)
But we should start thinking outside the box.

Adesoji Iginla (46:06.702)
Yeah. I mean, the workers are willing to put their money on the line, which in this story they did, but the company just said, you know what, I'd rather deal directly with an outside force. And I think it's that worker's power that they are afraid of, that going down the line, something might crop up.

Milton Allimadi (46:31.023)
once.

Adesoji Iginla (46:35.246)
and the power of numbers might not be in their favor.

Milton Allimadi (46:40.815)
Right, it's always been like that though. I mean remember when Ghana and Nkrumah built the dam at Akosombo for the Volta River project and with Kaiser Aluminum when they were negotiating, you know, Kaiser said yes we'll build the plant but we won't use Ghanaian oxide.

Adesoji Iginla (46:49.966)
I'll go somewhere, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (47:09.422)
We'll have to import.

Milton Allimadi (47:10.319)
it will bring bauxite from outside the country. And why was that? Because they thought in Ghana had the potential to have 100 % ownership or control. Ghana would nationalize, you know, Kaiser's plant and own everything 100%. So they made sure that Ghana was dependent on something which it was not in control of, even though Ghana produced bauxite as well.

Adesoji Iginla (47:38.478)
Exactly, exactly. I mean, that is...

Milton Allimadi (47:41.295)
So that's what it's all about. And that's the similar situation going back to what you just said. Avoiding having Africans be in a position to have like a hundred percent.

Adesoji Iginla (47:53.198)
One final point. When the deal went ahead and the company was approached as to why they decided to do so, one of the key things they talked about was the bad press that the previous company had was one they were trying to avoid. As a result, they just wanted the goods off their hands.

So why not speak to the workers in there to say, are you interested in buying this? And OK, fine, we're not selling it. We're not selling X percentage. We're selling the whole thing. If you can raise the money, or like you said, if the World Bank can come in and support them, then that will have been an option. But not to even speak to them at all is.

Milton Allimadi (48:49.295)
But the good thing is that, and I hate using the word, so I'll say farm rather than they've been referring to it as plantation because that to me evokes the image of enslaved Cisner brothers in the American South. So the good thing is that this farm and the product, which is the tea, is in Kenya, you see? So this idea...

should not be off the table. This is something that the workers need to keep pursuing and pressing. You know, regardless that the ownership has changed hands, now you make the same demands to the new owners. That we want you within five years or so. You know, we want to own this within five years. So you work with us, you know, we are working on the financing.

and the financing will be coming from the World Bank, IMF, African Development Bank, EU, China, you know, whomever says they're interested in supporting African development, absolutely. And then, you know, they can have, as I said, a portion of it, if they want, can be traded, like they traded right now, you know, so now, but investors are coming.

Adesoji Iginla (49:57.23)
Yep.

Adesoji Iginla (50:04.718)
workers ownership.

Milton Allimadi (50:18.959)
on their terms, the terms of the African owners of this product. And the same thing should then be replicated for cocoa in Ghana and Cote d 'Ivoire.

Adesoji Iginla (50:20.718)
Yeah.

Milton Allimadi (50:38.255)
Yeah, we have to get out of the box. We have to think out of the box. We have to find a way to create not even major wealth initially. We're talking about sustenance. When our sisters and brothers are drowning in the Mediterranean, that's probably on us as well. That's on us.

Adesoji Iginla (50:38.35)
you keep bringing up the Ghana example, you might start scaring future investors.

Milton Allimadi (51:07.951)
We can't say, our leaders are failing them, our leaders are failing them. No, who are the leaders? We are part of the leadership as well. Even though we don't hold the political power, we can influence things by being in our roles as intellectual, as people that can engage through conversation. So we need to also step up our game to rescue our people.

Adesoji Iginla (51:08.398)
I mean, last week's.

Adesoji Iginla (51:34.702)
that's, and which is one of the things we're doing here because we're sort of posing questions as to what we're looking at is not the right way to approach things. There is a much more methodological way of doing things. And the faster we adopted, the better it is for the liberation of the continent as opposed to business as usual.

Milton Allimadi (51:50.479)
Run.

Milton Allimadi (52:01.327)
Absolutely.

Adesoji Iginla (52:04.046)
because I think people have gotten too comfortable with the notion that at the drop of the hat, you run off to the West, you go and borrow money, that money finds a way of going back to the West and you're back to ground zero.

Milton Allimadi (52:17.519)
Absolutely. You're just paying the interest. You're not even allowed to pay the principal off because that's how they design anyway. In fact, you could be harmed physically if you try to pay off the principal because you're taking food off the table for people in the West. Nobody wants you to pay the principal. You are supposed to just serve this interest. That's it.

Adesoji Iginla (52:22.734)
Hahaha

Adesoji Iginla (52:34.286)
I mean even when you don't want it.

Adesoji Iginla (52:39.854)
And even when you don't want it, you'll be forced to.

Milton Allimadi (52:43.247)
Absolutely. What do you mean? You want to be free and not indebted? Are you out of your mind? That's not how the world operates. I like it when I try to get a loan, like a business loan or personal loan or a significant amount. One of the key things they ask is, how much debt do you have? no, I have no debt. no, no.

Adesoji Iginla (52:46.894)
Ha ha ha.

Adesoji Iginla (52:51.022)
You don't seem to know how it works. You know, so...

Adesoji Iginla (53:11.47)
No, no, no, no, no, no,

Milton Allimadi (53:12.943)
You don't qualify for any borrowing. You don't have big -time credit card debts? no, I don't use credit cards. no, no. Sorry. Thank you for calling.

Adesoji Iginla (53:19.022)
We must see that.

No. no no no. We can't, I'm sorry, we can't... Deny it.

Milton Allimadi (53:32.143)
Well, the same thing for individuals, countries also operate that way when they're dealing with the West.

Adesoji Iginla (53:38.734)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you look across the continent, it's... People are getting wiser. I mean, the youths are, you know, they're exercising the agency at speaking. And if we're to go by the example of what happened in Senegal, that is fast becoming the way things are going.

Milton Allimadi (54:03.823)
Absolutely, they're just not having it anymore. So, yeah, we respect the elders, but no, that's not going to feed us. I'm sorry. You know? Move out. Move out of state house. No. Out.

Adesoji Iginla (54:06.35)
Yeah, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (54:12.702)
You

Adesoji Iginla (54:17.358)
I mean, one of the statements they made in the course of that campaign was the fact that we're not going to be quiet like our grandfathers.

Milton Allimadi (54:27.087)
Well, you have to respect that. That is a revolutionary statement.

Adesoji Iginla (54:31.278)
I mean.

Hmm. You know, so speaking of not going to be quite like the grandfathers, we go to the United Nations, the scene of so many a tale, not the least the slapping on the table on the on the table of the shoe of Khrushchev when the American during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Milton Allimadi (55:03.375)
All right.

Adesoji Iginla (55:03.758)
And so we're back again. This time we're shredding. And it's the United Nations. And it's...

It's there that President Mahmoud Abbas addresses the United Nations. And so the lead says, the UN General Assembly voted by a wide margin on Friday to grant new rights and privileges to Palestine and call on the Security Councils to reconsider Palestine's request to become the 194th member of United Nations.

The 193 -member world body approved the Arab and Palestinian -sponsored resolution by a vote of 143 to 9 with 25 abstentions. The United States voted against the resolution alongside Israel, Argentina, Chechia, Hungary, Micronesia, Nehru, Palau, and Papua New Guinea. The vote reflected the wild

global support for full membership of Palestine and the United Nations, with many countries expressing outrage at the escalating death toll in Gaza and fears of a major Israeli offensive in Raqqa, a southern city where 1 .3 million Palestinians have sought refuge. What would you say, what's your initial reaction to the vote?

Milton Allimadi (56:44.847)
There's not much that can be said. You can see by the protests that are breaking out all over the world, the level of support that the Palestinians now have, a lot more so, by the way, than before the conflict escalated. Because, quite frankly, the issue had not been on the front pages for a very long time.

And many, many people around the world have forgotten the Palestinian cross. And of course that was preferable for both Israel and even the United States. We can keep it, you know, on the front pages and we can find an accommodation between Israel and all of the Arab world. Then the Palestinian so -called crisis will just disappear.

We could ignore it perpetually. Of course that has changed dramatically, beginning with the attack by Hamas, which then invited the escalation and retaliation by the Israeli Defense Forces. But to me it seems a little bit that we are having the cart ahead of the horse, you know?

If the people that are fully supporting the Palestinian cause, the nation states in particular, if you really want to do something major,

I think you should host a conference of all the major Palestinian organizations, groups, factions, prominent leaders, and have them have a conference.

Adesoji Iginla (58:52.654)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (58:58.127)
and elect a transitional government, right? A unity government. Right now you need total unity of purpose and cause. This is not the time to have different factions claiming to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

Adesoji Iginla (59:27.982)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (59:28.559)
All of them have that conference and come up with that transitional government and then have that transition government have a declaration of independence. And once they declare independence, then, and I'm not naming any names, but hey, South Africa, since you've been very vocal, you know, why don't you host this conference? You know, of course you might.

face total loss of any financial relationship with the United States. But it would take something of that nature. Nobody hands independence to anyone on a silver platter. And in cases where it was handed on a silver platter, there's been a lot of problems. How did the state of Israel itself come into existence?

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:22.254)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:00:29.535)
They declared independence, the creation of an independent state and eventually they started getting recognition.

Even Ian Smith tried to declare a white state in the middle of southern Africa. Of course, he got no recognition. But I'm just saying he had the audaciousness with this. Absolutely. But the Palestinians have a legitimate right to another state. And for years there's been talk and talk and talk and talk.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:45.038)
Yeah, you do. You know.

Adesoji Iginla (01:00:57.742)
I mean, that was his electoral pledge.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:10.735)
so -called two -state solution. And part of that talk obviously has been, as Americans say, punting the bar or kicking the can down the road. If it remains just talking about it, this talk will continue for decades. So I think you need a bold move like that where independence is declared and they're quite...

Adesoji Iginla (01:01:23.342)
and erode you.

Milton Allimadi (01:01:40.783)
many states right now, I believe that would be willing to recognize that. And obviously now, obviously Netanyahu would not like that. And he would probably not want to withdraw from an inch of any Palestinian territory that is occupied. But that government that has declared independence and recognized

And that's not demanding to exercise a sovereignty on this sovereign state that has now come into existence. We need both out of the box type, you know, moves like that. In my own view. Then this vote at the UN would have a lot more...

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:26.35)
True, true.

Milton Allimadi (01:02:39.983)
lot more meaning. Initially you may not have 143 votes. I think part of the problem is that a lot of these 143 are voting because they know it will remain symbolic. So the true test will come about if they declare independence and they come back and say okay now let's see who's going to vote for us. Yeah so that's my own take.

Adesoji Iginla (01:02:41.262)
A minute, yep.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:01.518)
Let's see. Put your vote where your mouth is.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:08.814)
And then Big Brother is watching them. Okay, who's raising their hands? You? Okay. Yeah, I mean, you raise a very pertinent question. And the mere fact that the ambassador for Israel gave a revisionist version of history is also damning to the point where...

Milton Allimadi (01:03:11.055)
Mm -hmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:03:15.247)
Yes.

Adesoji Iginla (01:03:37.358)
because it's a diplomatic body where there is no, you know, there's no retort as to saying, come on, that's not true history. And you have to listen to it. It's also telling about how out of a...

what's the word I'm looking for now, out of fashion, the entire body is. I mean, it's an assembly. By the same time, there must be an element of decorum. You can't come down and insult people's intelligence and that be considered just speaking.

Milton Allimadi (01:04:22.287)
Yeah, but you know, I think that's transitional, that type of, I know he came to the podium and he was shredding when...

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:38.35)
Shots up.

Milton Allimadi (01:04:39.087)
on that portable shredder and all that. Right now we can do that because of the overwhelming blind support and conditional from the United States. In my estimation that is not going to remain that way. Not only for domestic, international reasons, but for domestic reasons as well. There's a lot of discontent.

Adesoji Iginla (01:04:54.446)
Mm.

Milton Allimadi (01:05:08.015)
within even the Biden administration. Obviously, there's a lot of discontent in the public. Before the student protests on campus became the focus, we recall there have been many protests on the streets, right? Let's not forget that. It's not in the news right now, but we saw the massive protests in New York City, the massive protests in Washington, DC. So there's a lot of public sentiment.

Adesoji Iginla (01:05:26.798)
Okay.

Milton Allimadi (01:05:38.735)
that is also, I think, shifting away from the blind unconditional support for Israel. I think this war has done, you know, obviously significant damage to Israel's reputation, you know, not only international, but domestically in the United States. This isn't just, you know...

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:03.31)
Yes?

Milton Allimadi (01:06:05.775)
me saying it, you've been hearing what Bernie Sanders has been saying, Senator Bernie Sanders. Very, very vocal. And I like the fact that he's been like that because he's sort of, you know, he's humanized. He can say these things as a Jewish man without facing the consequence of being accused of anti -Semitism and then of facing professional retaliation.

Adesoji Iginla (01:06:29.262)
anti -semitism.

Milton Allimadi (01:06:35.599)
against you at your place of employment, denying your income, cutting you off from public conversations. So yeah, let him say those things that need to be said, which are truthful. He's been condemning the shipment of billions of dollars worth of US arms, even as the killings continue to escalate. So I think there's going to be...

seismic shift going forward in the next few years so things are not going to be the same obviously to defuse the situation I think one of the things that need to be moved on very quickly is a Palestinian state but it should not just be taught yes yes yes we deserve it no no no no they should also

with assistance of others, take the initiative. It's long overdue to declare that state, independent partisan state, and start getting, even if you're recognized initially by two countries, you know, you build from there.

Adesoji Iginla (01:07:50.542)
and then take it forward. And yes, thank you again for coming through as usual. We've...

Milton Allimadi (01:07:54.511)
Absolutely.

Milton Allimadi (01:08:00.783)
Thank you. Thank you for always bringing to the forefront these interesting topics. And you know, people that listen, we don't just want them to listen, of course, we want them to also start thinking outside of the box. Same old, same old is the reason why we are still in the same old position as African people. So every issue we debate, one of the proposals should be some proposal thinking outside the box.

Otherwise, there's no use in arguing in conversation.

Adesoji Iginla (01:08:35.438)
I mean, also is the fact that sometimes it's just an element of remembering. I mean, we talked about earlier in the program, we talked about Egypt's deciding to join South Africa. One of the key reasons why Egypt is the way it is was the fact that when he signed the Camp David Accord, exactly.

Milton Allimadi (01:09:00.143)
Right. It was neutered.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:04.494)
So all of a sudden now it's finding its voice that it lost post NASA's, you know, post NASA's death.

Milton Allimadi (01:09:09.871)
Absolutely.

As a result of Camp David, Egypt gets more than $1 .3 billion from the United States every year. And you become dependent on that. You forget that. You can also generate that by increasing your production in Egypt so that it's coming from your production, not coming with a...

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:23.086)
Every year, yeah.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:39.182)
Hmm.

Milton Allimadi (01:09:42.127)
with a chain and balls.

Adesoji Iginla (01:09:45.422)
Was it not Sankara who said, he who feeds you controls?

Milton Allimadi (01:09:50.799)
Absolutely. You know, I said the best evidence for imperialism, look at your plate, if your food is imported, that's imperialism. Yes, I rather knew how to summarize these things.

Adesoji Iginla (01:10:03.15)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was a man we were, you know. And yes, again, my deepest appreciation for coming through. And once again, we'll see again. Do like, share, subscribe. And on.

Milton Allimadi (01:10:15.055)
my pleasure.

Milton Allimadi (01:10:22.511)
I'm just not.

Milton Allimadi (01:10:51.023)
Absolutely.

Milton Allimadi (01:10:58.305)
Thank you, brother.

Milton Allimadi (01:11:04.911)
See you next week.

Milton Allimadi (01:11:10.159)
Thanks a lot.